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  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    The Spread of R1b

    Originally posted by Downer101
    Hold On! Stevo may have a point about this 8000~10 000 ybp R1b, because it is a predecessor of R1 that travelled, and settled in Eastern Europe about 20 000 ybp.. This would apply to the theory I stated in Stevo's previous thread, about spread of Indo-Europeans from Northern Ukraine, etc. It covers everything we have mentioned..
    It's easy to make the assumption that R1b is 30-35,000 years old. From my understanding the R1b predecessor arrived at the Russian Steppes around 30,000 years ago and moved westwards. How fast westwards did the type move?? I don't think it would have been very fast, initially. Perhaps it was the horse that kind of sped things up as far as migration goes. I would think environment affects the mutation and time is just another added factor. I think we need to look at every possibility of what can cause mutations, and have better accountability of the time of mutation of haplogroups (and their subgroupings) in order to eliminate the glaring holes in some of the theories.

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  • Downer101
    replied
    Hold On! Stevo may have a point about this 8000~10 000 ybp R1b, because it is a predecessor of R1 that travelled, and settled in Eastern Europe about 20 000 ybp.. This would apply to the theory I stated in Stevo's previous thread, about spread of Indo-Europeans from Northern Ukraine, etc. It covers everything we have mentioned..

    Leave a comment:


  • nas
    replied
    R1b age

    Originally posted by Stevo
    And Norman's problem with me and what I say has its roots in the fact that I said the early Finns may have been Mongolian looking. Frankly, I think they were.

    He was offended and now feels he must contradict what I post.

    Actually I have not "dismissed" anything, and I certainly have not "reviled" anything.




    Norman does not consider my arguments. He would rather nurse a grudge based on his wounded claim to "blond and beautiful" Scandinavian ancestry.

    There are plenty of holes in the whole "Paleo R1b" hypothesis. It may still be correct, but there are some problems with it that need to be dealt with.

    And alternatives should be considered. Besides, my centum Indo-European hypothesis does not stand or fall based on the age of R1b.
    Hello,
    I agree about the R1b-age in Eastern-Europe...but maybe a sub-group moved earlier to the West.
    Nas

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by NormanGalway
    vinevez,

    I think you will find that the timeline is not "in error", but instead skewed towards R1b1c=Indo-European. This is the great white whale that Stevo is after. As a result, anything that conflicts with that -- such as the arguments of the many leading geneticists who believe in europe's paleolithic continuity (some of whom, like spencer wells, are part of Stevo's clade, so it can't just be put down to sour grapes) -- gets dismissed. or reviled. etc.

    nice point, btw.
    And Norman's problem with me and what I say has its roots in the fact that I said the early Finns may have been Mongolian looking. Frankly, I think they were.

    He was offended and now feels he must contradict what I post.

    Actually I have not "dismissed" anything, and I certainly have not "reviled" anything.

    Norman does not consider my arguments. He would rather nurse a grudge based on his wounded claim to "blond and beautiful" Scandinavian ancestry.

    There are plenty of holes in the whole "Paleo R1b" hypothesis. It may still be correct, but there are some problems with it that need to be dealt with.

    And alternatives should be considered. Besides, my centum Indo-European hypothesis does not stand or fall based on the age of R1b.
    Last edited by Stevo; 25 November 2006, 11:18 AM.

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  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Interesting point

    Originally posted by Rick
    I'll vote for one of the oldest. In ysearch the genetic distances between the R1b1c6 entries are quite large. They appear to be on average about 1.5 to 2 times larger at 12, 25 and 37 markers than are the genetic distances among R1b1c7 (to use for comparison a subclade that is generally considered fairly young).
    I can't exactly remember where but I was reading some threads where the age of R1b1c6 isn't well defined, perhaps off by several thousand years. If that's the case, then I wonder how closely they're related to the cultures within mesolithic or even upper paleolithic Iberia. At the latest we're looking at the Iron Age time frame between 1,500 to 2,000 years ago. Another interesting point is how R1b1c6 is mostly found in Basque country and Cantabria. Basques being the speakers of a pre-Indo-European language (not proto-European) and most likely the remnants of a late mesolithic/neolithic culture no older than 8,000 years old. Maybe the upper paleolithic and early mesolithic haplogroups died off. Always a possibility. But your point to a larger than average genetic distance among the haplogroup probably identifies a migration well spread out within the halpogroup over a greater period of time. The latter perhaps indicating a more ancient SNP then we're led to believe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Bla bla bla

    Originally posted by nas
    Hello,
    The Ebro-valley was the prehistoric Highway from East to the West.
    There was a prehistoric Mediterrean population in the East(Catalunia) and an Atlantic culture in the West.
    For prehistoric people,the Ebro-Valley,was the place to be for food and shelter.
    It surely was a good hunting-area in the Iberian-refugia.
    Please let me know,what you think about my bla bla bla...
    Nas
    Well, I think your bla bla bla is right on the money. The Ebro River Valley must have been a forested paradise during the height of the LGM around 18,000 years ago. I would think the earliest modern human beings would have entered along the Med. coastline and wrapped around the Ebro River valley from modern day Catalonia towards Cantabria as the ice sheet was retreating further north. From my understanding the ending of the LGM was fairly rapid with one minor freeze up for couple of thousand years (a false retreat so to speak).

    I'm not objected to a possible migration around the north of the Pyrenees towards the shoreline near Bayonne, either. I'm sure the coast would have been accessible (possibly more land exposure along the Biscay Bay shelfline even though it narrows at the south end) from SW France to Northern Spain along the north face of the Cantabrian Mountain Ranges.

    All things are possible.

    Though a little more south along the Castillian coastline, the mesolithic cave art of the Spanish Levant has several drawings of (longbow?) archers pursuing game. It's quite interesting and it would have been an area with a lot of resources from the Med and Iberian mountains.

    Without a doubt the Tagus/Taxus, and Deuro Ebro Rivers would have been a corridor of mountainous travel towards the Atlantic. Though the Ebro terminates just due south of the Bay of Biscay; it certainly leads in that direction. The Celt Iberians knew the importance of this region, as it connected them with the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.

    My guess is that Celt Iberians descended from the Basques or Catalans, or perhaps the Celtici further south near Andulusia and Portugal and worked their way inland up the rivers. I don't think they were a migrating tribe from Central Europe. That is my bla bla bla for what it's worth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rick
    replied
    Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
    I'm starting to notice R1b1c6 more around the most western fringes of Ireland and SW England. I'm speculating this may have been the westernmost of the R1b1c subclades. If I could only get geographical data on some of the Spain and Portugal R1b1c6. It's found as far south as the Canary Islands which is really intriguing. Maybe R1b1c6 is one of the oldest, or one of the newest...
    I'll vote for one of the oldest. In ysearch the genetic distances between the R1b1c6 entries are quite large. They appear to be on average about 1.5 to 2 times larger at 12, 25 and 37 markers than are the genetic distances among R1b1c7 (to use for comparison a subclade that is generally considered fairly young).

    Leave a comment:


  • nas
    replied
    EBRO-Valley.

    Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
    Ebro, Ebro, Ebro, Ebro River... I have such a hard time with this.... just like hapologroup, etc.
    Hello,
    The Ebro-valley was the prehistoric Highway from East to the West.
    There was a prehistoric Mediterrean population in the East(Catalunia) and an Atlantic culture in the West.
    For prehistoric people,the Ebro-Valley,was the place to be for food and shelter.
    It surely was a good hunting-area in the Iberian-refugia.
    Please let me know,what you think about my bla bla bla...
    Nas

    Leave a comment:


  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Oops

    Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
    Maybe R1b1c7 is actually connected to the Gallic Celts. It would make sense as M222 is allegedly from the region of where modern day France is. I think the connection is pretty close between R1b1c6 and R1b1c7. Maybe so close that R1b1c7 is probably from SW France in the Aquitane, or Gascony region. Perhaps it explains the closeness to the Basques with both haplogroups. I just wished we could get more pinpointed locations and dates identifying where and when the haplogroups were created/mutated.

    If R1b1c6 is only ~2,500 - 3,000 years old, it seems that it would make sense for it to be connected with the Iron Age Celts of Iberia; The Celtiberians. Possibly the high count of R1b1c6 in Cantabria could be the aftermath of the Numantine War and the great fall of Numantia. The Cantabrian War came around sometime afterwards as a last resistance.

    Interestingly there is a high count of R1b1c6 in Catalonia Country along what appears to be the Ebros River valley up onwards to the Basque Country. The Ebros terminates in southern Cantabria. It is almost fits exactly in the region of the Celtiberian settlement. I'm still trying to figure out how R1b1c6 people ended up in Ireland and Britain.

    Another of my many guesses is they spread along the northern Cantabrian Coastline (Santander?), or made their way towards Galicia to La Caruna (Breogan); perhaps down the Duero River to nearby Finnistere (Land's End) and set sail from one of these ports. Since there was probably an alliance with the Lusitanians and Celtiberians when fighting against the Romans, the port of departure maybe even from Lisbon.

    Another possibility is the alliance with Carthage against Rome and departure could have been from Barcelona, Valencia, or New Carthage. Hey, I almost covered all of Iberia.
    Ebro, Ebro, Ebro, Ebro River... I have such a hard time with this.... just like hapologroup, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Regarding Book

    Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow
    Well I received the book "Facing the Ocean"..looks great !I probably should have read it before reading Oppenheimer, which I have about 75 pages left on.
    Barry Cunliffe has a writing style that I like within this particular book. Easy to read and not overloaded with jargon and footnotes. I also think Francis Pryor is an excellent writer too, though he seems more opinionated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kathleen Carrow
    replied
    Well I received the book "Facing the Ocean"..looks great !I probably should have read it before reading Oppenheimer, which I have about 75 pages left on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Originally posted by nas
    Hello,
    ...but Devon/Cornwall was the after-Ice-Age homeland of R1b1c6!
    R1b1c7 came later,probably from Germany(Rhine).
    I always wondered about the"connection"between those two subclades
    Nas
    Maybe R1b1c7 is actually connected to the Gallic Celts. It would make sense as M222 is allegedly from the region of where modern day France is. I think the connection is pretty close between R1b1c6 and R1b1c7. Maybe so close that R1b1c7 is probably from SW France in the Aquitane, or Gascony region. Perhaps it explains the closeness to the Basques with both haplogroups. I just wished we could get more pinpointed locations and dates identifying where and when the haplogroups were created/mutated.

    If R1b1c6 is only ~2,500 - 3,000 years old, it seems that it would make sense for it to be connected with the Iron Age Celts of Iberia; The Celtiberians. Possibly the high count of R1b1c6 in Cantabria could be the aftermath of the Numantine War and the great fall of Numantia. The Cantabrian War came around sometime afterwards as a last resistance.

    Interestingly there is a high count of R1b1c6 in Catalonia Country along what appears to be the Ebros River valley up onwards to the Basque Country. The Ebros terminates in southern Cantabria. It is almost fits exactly in the region of the Celtiberian settlement. I'm still trying to figure out how R1b1c6 people ended up in Ireland and Britain.

    Another of my many guesses is they spread along the northern Cantabrian Coastline (Santander?), or made their way towards Galicia to La Caruna (Breogan); perhaps down the Duero River to nearby Finnistere (Land's End) and set sail from one of these ports. Since there was probably an alliance with the Lusitanians and Celtiberians when fighting against the Romans, the port of departure maybe even from Lisbon.

    Another possibility is the alliance with Carthage against Rome and departure could have been from Barcelona, Valencia, or New Carthage. Hey, I almost covered all of Iberia.

    Leave a comment:


  • nas
    replied
    Devon/Cornwall

    Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
    Base camp may actually be Cantabria, Spain and Devon/Cornwall is the remote camp. Not sure how Ireland fits into the picture, maybe it's a quick stopover.
    Hello,
    ...but Devon/Cornwall was the after-Ice-Age homeland of R1b1c6!
    R1b1c7 came later,probably from Germany(Rhine).
    I always wondered about the"connection"between those two subclades
    Nas

    Leave a comment:


  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Base Camp

    Originally posted by nas
    Hello,
    Yes! With Base-Camp Cornwall?
    And what about R1b1c4...also a cousin?
    Good Hunting

    Reindeer for ever!
    Nas
    Base camp may actually be Cantabria, Spain and Devon/Cornwall is the remote camp. Not sure how Ireland fits into the picture, maybe it's a quick stopover.

    Leave a comment:


  • nas
    replied
    The Artistic Hunter.

    Hello,
    Yes! With Base-Camp Cornwall?
    And what about R1b1c4...also a cousin?
    Good Hunting

    Reindeer for ever!
    Nas

    Leave a comment:

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