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  • Questions re "Unknown" haplogroup

    My haplogroup apparently cannot be securely predicted based on my y37 results (is there a Haplogroup "Unknown" support group? ). I have two questions:

    (1) What is the difference between a y-hap-backbone test and a deep clade test? What information does each test provide? I can find complete descriptions of the deep clade procedure, but can't seem to locate any clear description of what the "backbone" test involves.

    (2) Is there ever a case where a haplogroup cannot be identified using either or both of the above tests? Or will they always determine a haplogroup (assuming the existence of an adequate dna swab)?

    Thanks in advance for any help with these issues.

  • #2
    Originally posted by ylgitn
    My haplogroup apparently cannot be securely predicted based on my y37 results (is there a Haplogroup "Unknown" support group? ). I have two questions:
    Almost every haplogroup can be accurately predicted with 37 markers. FTDNA has two levels of confidence about their predictions: the most stringent applies to data shown in the surname projects. A weaker confidence system governs the one shown on the haplogroup tab of your Personal Page.

    Even if FTDNA cannot predict your haplogroup, there are other ways to get a prediction. One is to post your Y-37 markers here and we can help you.

    Another is to input your markers into Whit Athey's predictor yourself.

    https://home.comcast.net/~whitathey/hapest2/hapest2.htm

    A third is to upload your results to ySearch, and then observe your closest matches. Quite often, all the closest matches will be in the same haplogroup as you.

    What is the difference between a y-hap-backbone test and a deep clade test? What information does each test provide? I can find complete descriptions of the deep clade procedure, but can't seem to locate any clear description of what the "backbone" test involves.
    The backbone test only looks at a few high level haplogroup markers. DO NOT ORDER THIS TEST. It is poor value, given that your haplogroup can probably be predicted with high confidence using only your 37 markers.

    Is there ever a case where a haplogroup cannot be identified using either or both of the above tests? Or will they always determine a haplogroup (assuming the existence of an adequate dna swab)?
    You haplogroup can almost always be predicted with 37 markers and always be identified with a SNP test.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ylgitn
      I can find complete descriptions of the deep clade procedure, but can't seem to locate any clear description of what the "backbone" test involves.
      If you're willing to wait, FTDNA will eventually resolve your 'Unknown haplogroup' status, even if they have to run a free backbone test. Here is what FTDNA posted to a public mailing list. Read especially what FTDNA says about resolving past 'unknowns'.

      ---
      Since we strive for 100%, we decided to launch the "SNP Assurance Program" from batch 178 on: any prediction that we don't have 100% certainty of, we will SNP test for free. This will not only tighten our prediction system for the future, but also help resolve many ambiguous predictions for samples tested in the past. After a few batches being processed this way, we will look at all the past "unresolved" SNP predictions, and we will gradually test them for free to further tighten our prediction system until all past unconfirmed SNPs can be 100% predicted.


      E-mail anytime!

      Max Blankfeld
      Vice-President, Operations and Marketing http://www.FamilyTreeDNA.com "History Unearthed Daily" [email protected] 713-868-1438
      ---

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lgmayka
        If you're willing to wait, FTDNA will eventually resolve your 'Unknown haplogroup' status, even if they have to run a free backbone test. Here is what FTDNA posted to a public mailing list. Read especially what FTDNA says about resolving past 'unknowns'.

        ---
        Since we strive for 100%, we decided to launch the "SNP Assurance Program" from batch 178 on: any prediction that we don't have 100% certainty of, we will SNP test for free. This will not only tighten our prediction system for the future, but also help resolve many ambiguous predictions for samples tested in the past. After a few batches being processed this way, we will look at all the past "unresolved" SNP predictions, and we will gradually test them for free to further tighten our prediction system until all past unconfirmed SNPs can be 100% predicted.


        E-mail anytime!

        Max Blankfeld
        Vice-President, Operations and Marketing http://www.FamilyTreeDNA.com "History Unearthed Daily" [email protected] 713-868-1438
        ---
        Sorry, I should have clarified that FTDNA is already running the free backbone test, which is pending. I was wondering mainly whether this would give me the same level of precise information of a deep clade test, or whether the backbone result would be limited to more general haplogroup description.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ylgitn
          Sorry, I should have clarified that FTDNA is already running the free backbone test, which is pending. I was wondering mainly whether this would give me the same level of precise information of a deep clade test, or whether the backbone result would be limited to more general haplogroup description.
          It depends on the haplogroup. With the backbone test, FTDNA will put you into one of the following groups:

          A, B, C, D, E, E3a, E3b, F, G, H, I, J, K, K2, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, R1a, R1b, R2

          If a deepclade test is available for your haplogroup then it will, by definition, give you more precise information than the backbone test. On the other hand, using the prediction methods I mentioned earlier you might get the same or better precision (albeit with lower confidence) without having to pay for a deep clade test.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by vineviz
            It depends on the haplogroup. With the backbone test, FTDNA will put you into one of the following groups:

            A, B, C, D, E, E3a, E3b, F, G, H, I, J, K, K2, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, R1a, R1b, R2

            If a deepclade test is available for your haplogroup then it will, by definition, give you more precise information than the backbone test. On the other hand, using the prediction methods I mentioned earlier you might get the same or better precision (albeit with lower confidence) without having to pay for a deep clade test.
            Thanks. I tried Athby's predictor and received a lukewarm "fair" (27) result for J. Behind that were I1b and Q at around 15 each. Still, the prediction somehow seems wrong and uncertain. All of my significant deviations from J and J2 modal values were on supposedly slow moving markers.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ylgitn
              Thanks. I tried Athby's predictor and received a lukewarm "fair" (27) result for J. Behind that were I1b and Q at around 15 each. Still, the prediction somehow seems wrong and uncertain. All of my significant deviations from J and J2 modal values were on supposedly slow moving markers.
              Using the current version of his predictor (linked above), you should only have two scores in the rightmost column not three.

              If you want to post your marker values, I'd be happy to take a look: I, J, and Q are rarely indistinguishable with 37 markers.
              Last edited by vineviz; 7 November 2006, 10:01 AM.

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