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  • Tzvi, I am puzzled as well about the failure to identify the J subclades. It is quite likely that the Samaritans came from a published study by Bonne-Tamir and Michael Hammer of FTDNA. Their study identified the haplotypes of the four remaining family and identified the specific families by the first letter of each family's surname. A separate study by Shen reported the J subclade of each of the J clade families and identified the families by their complete surname. If one reads the Shen study it would be a simple matter to connect haplotypes with J subclade. Perhaps the FTDNA folks have forgotten how to read. Yes, I know, not all the members of each family have been both SNPed and STRed.

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    • Tzvi, I am rather skeptical of modern claims about ancient ancestry. However, given the extensive presence of "digs" in Israel, why not test a few bones.

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      • The only way to know for sure what the actual Hebrew genetic signature is, the Israeli Gov't would have to test the bones from the patriarchs in Hebron. The "ethics" of this could be argued for all eternity, but I personally think that if any of the patriarchs were alive to ask the the question..."would you authorize the examination of your bones to let your decendants know for sure who they are?" I believe the answer would be "Yes" given the strict requirements regarding both the "Davidic line" and the requirements of the "Levite cast". Another great indicator would be to test the mummified remains of "Joseph". The closer relationship between Jacob and Rachel would reduce the possibility of an NPE (as a scientific arguement). Given the events of the last century I think it would be very "unwise" to to publicly disclose those results.

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        • The fact that those traditions have been adhered to for over 3000 years is quite amazing. The people of those lineages (Hebrew DNA or not) are still "Jewish" can only go by the information they have at the time. Some lines may be more recent and others may be thousands of years old. This is why I would caution anyone about making any conclusions regarding what the Hebrew signature is. A person could go and have their DNA tested and if that showed 100% that they were not "Hebrew" that could have a negative social affect. That persons genetic lineage could could extend back to Egypt from over 3000 years ago and in my eyes again just as "Hebrew" as anyone else.

          Let's suppose (for arguments sake) that the number of male "Hebrews" that left Egypt was between sixty and one hundred thousand. The remaining five hundred or so thousand were joined to them, but were not descendants of Jacob. Of those that were "Hebrew" some were NPE's (say 2%). During the next few hundred years of war/famine/plague etc. Most of the deaths (for what ever reason) were genetic Hebrews. The numbers may not turn out to be what is expected in terms of what we see today. Another factor to consider is that the most "visible" Hebrews or Jews were those that were the most observant. This made the women more likely to be victims of any ethnic cleansing mentality of their enemies. There are many dark possibilities, but without testing the bones of the patriarchs they are just that "possibilities". I trust the work of the genetisists regarding the "Cohen Model", but I won't make the assumption that it is the signature of the Hebrew patriarchs.

          The danger (in my opinion) in making the Hebrew signature public (Cohen or not), is that if another attempt to eliminate the descendants of Jacob was to occur it would be even more destructive. To say that there is no more people of Hebrew descent would be a huge blow to the Jewish psyche.

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          • If you are referning to the Levitical Laws regarding temple practice then...yes it would be essential from that point of view. There would have to be a great effort so as not to isolate people socially, but being that this is a DNA forum and not a religious one I will leave it at that.

            Quote:

            "If every male with a direct patrilineal line to the 12 tribes was eliminated before the third temple, that would mean the Torah is completely false."

            Yes...but that doesn't mean somone would not try again, thus leading to great hardship once again for the Jewish people (this could apply to any culture).

            Quote:

            "Besides, errors in Judaism gives religions such as Islam and Christianity credibility."

            I would rather know the "truth" regarding history than believe an honest mistake or "error" that does not show any ounce of credibility. This doesn't refer to "Judaism" or any other religion as a whole, but I'm not afraid to question some of the contents of any of the above. I'm warry of any religion that is afraid to confront "possible" errors.

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            • Study of craniums

              I have read a couple of articles pertaining to the skulls that were found in digs of jewish sites in israel.It said that only a very small percentage of modern day jews have this type of cranium.I suspect it has something to do with haplogroups or even haplotypes or combination y and x to form this type of cranium.With the databases still very small it's still hard to make assumptions at this time in my opinion.I don't think we will get a picture of geno types till more samples are given.

              timekiller

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              • Timekiller, this would require autosomal testing. Y and X do not have any direct impact on physical appearance. (under some circumstances there might be a correlation with appearance).

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                • Article

                  This is the article I was reffering to I don't know if it's a crap article from the internet of course don't believe everything you read but I'm not a anthropologist. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/hittites.htm


                  TK

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                  • Tzvi, thanks for the article. Too bad the ossuary was empty.

                    TimeKiller, the article illustrated problems in reaching generalizations about Jewish origins. The issue is under debate, but in my view a high percentage of Jews (perhaps as much as 50%) entered the faith through conversion rather than having origins in ancient Israel. On the other hand around 50% or more did have Levantine, i.e. Semitic origins. Jewish dna haplogroup patterns seem to support this picture with respect to modern non-Jewish Semitic dna patterns. A non-random sample of Jewish skulls might lead to the erroneous conclusion that Jews were not from ancient Israel.

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                    • Contrary to the crackpot science of 1905, cranial shape is not a reliable indication of ancestry. Behaviors as trivial as sleep position can significantly change cranial shape:

                      http://www.uchicagokidshospital.org/...ead-shape.html

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                      • That too. Thanks lgmayka

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                        • James D. Watson has an interesting head shape . . . skull shapes have tribal histories . . .

                          Originally posted by lgmayka
                          Contrary to the crackpot science of 1905, cranial shape is not a reliable indication of ancestry. Behaviors as trivial as sleep position can significantly change cranial shape:

                          http://www.uchicagokidshospital.org/...ead-shape.html

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                          • Scull shape has great importance in anthropology. The point of the article was simply that there are many sources of variance influencing scull shape, factors which complicate interpretation.

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                            • I am a J2a1* man who is very long headed. I actually measured my head dimensions before with calipers and my head legnth was 201mm and my head breadth was 149mm.

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                              • Originally posted by J Man
                                I am a J2a1* man who is very long headed. I actually measured my head dimensions before with calipers and my head legnth was 201mm and my head breadth was 149mm.
                                That's odd, J Man. I am J2a* and am also long-headed. It seems to run in the family, at least as far back as my paternal line great-grandfather.

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