J2f

[josh w.]

P.S. Nas, an alternative explanation is that some R1b1c subclades were in Asia Minor and eastern Europe. Perhaps this is a key to the Syrian and Ashkenazi matches.

[bob_chasm]

multiple lineages

Bob, thanks much. FTDNA appears to have given little weight to Coffman's point. ...

It seems you are right, that for now, FTDNA isnt considering the idea of multiple lineages among Cohanim. On the other hand, isnt it also possible that a reputable firm like FTDNA doesnt want to jump the gun, and is perhaps, waiting for results from some new studies before postulating on a J2 Cohanim/ Jewish signature modal haplotype/s? I think the wonderful thing about science is that it is always evolving.

regards,

bob

[bob_chasm]

I & P

From Nebel's research there appears to be two groups of haplotypes found among I & P Arabs : one group is shared with Jews the other group is found only among Arabs such as the Galilean Modal Haplotype . (This appears to parallel the distinction between Adnanite Arabs and pure Arabs) The CMH must come from the first group. My hunch is that the shared haplotype group was related to the earlier migration into northern Arabia. Thus if I had to guess, the CMH was present in a mixed migration of J1 and J2 into Canaan and northern Arabia.

I wasnt aware of the existence of a Galilean Modal Haplotype. What is it? I have read Coffman's article in which she speaks about Pal, Bedouin and CMH, but that was regarding J1 Haplogroup. http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm



CMH
14
15
23
10
11
Bedouin
13
14
16
23
10
11
12
Palestinian
14
17
22
11
11
13


regards,

bob

[josh w.]

Bob, the GMH ( named after a sample from that area) was found among I&P Arabs but not Jews. Most likely it is a J1 haplotype with DYS 388= 17.

GMH--14 17 23 11 11 12

Nebel speculated that it could either the result of genetic drift in the ancient Canaanite population or the result of the spread of Islam from Arabia.

Regards,
Josh

[bob_chasm]

modal types

Bob, the GMH ( named after a sample from that area) was found among I&P Arabs but not Jews. Most likely it is a J1 haplotype with DYS 388= 17.

GMH--14 17 23 11 11 12

Nebel speculated that it could either the result of genetic drift in the ancient Canaanite population or the result of the spread of Islam from Arabia.

Regards,
Josh

Coffman's article suggests that dys 388 in the Bedouin modal haplotype is two steps away from GMH while dys 388 in the CMH is only one step away. So GMH seems closer to CMH than the Bedouin modal haplotype. I wonder if Nabel indicated which Arab population commonly has dys 388=17?

BTW, I possess all 6 markers of the Bedouin modal haplotype (14, 15, 23, 10, 11, 13) but I belong to J2 not J1. How about you, which modal type is closer to you?

regards,

bob

[josh w.]

Bob, Nebel reported the GMH in I&P Arabs (near Galilee) and in Yemenis. To a lesser degree it is found in North Africa. It was not found among Jews or Kurds. It is viewed as a J1 haplotype but then again STRs are imperfect predictors of haplogroups.
As for myself I am J2, one mutation from the KMH.
Regards
Josh

[bob_chasm]

dys388

Bob, Nebel reported the GMH in I&P Arabs (near Galilee) and in Yemenis. To a lesser degree it is found in North Africa. It was not found among Jews or Kurds. It is viewed as a J1 haplotype but then again STRs are imperfect predictors of haplogroups.
As for myself I am J2, one mutation from the KMH.
Regards
Josh

hi josh: I was reading a msg by the Arabian Penisula Admn. who also concurred that Pure Arabs of Yemen and Southern Arabia have DYS388 of 17 and above and that Adnanites generally tend to have DYS388 below 17 as well as J2s. By the way, I am also 1 micro sat step away from the 6 marker KMH. I am 7/12 CMH markers.

BTW, Cheers and happy new year.

regards,

bob

[J Man]

Do any of you think that DYS388=17 in a J2 really means anything? Or is it just pobably a mutation from 15 or 16?




Y-DNA: J2a*

[josh w.]

Nebel appeared to have changed his mind from 2001 to 2002. In 2001 he suggested that the GMH could have been the result of genetic drift from the ancient Canaanite population in I&P Arabs. By 2002 he concluded that it was the result of migration from southern Arabian J1 sources beginning in the third century C.E. He did not think that the same pattern of genetic drift could have arisen in so many different areas.

Di Giacomo reported that DYS388 was the most variable marker among subclades of J. I don't know if its presence in J2s is of special significance.

[josh w.]

J2f among Assyrians is certainly possible. Of course, the problem is that little ancient dna has been tested. For biological reasons it is very difficult to extract ancient Y dna as compared to mtdna. However, it appears that National Geographic will soon be reporting on ancient Canaanite Y dna. From an anecdotal report on the forum the Canaanite Y dna contains J2 but I don't know about subclades. By "Canaanite" I mean north Canaan or Phoenicia in what is now Lebanon.

[TimeKiller]

Skull size

I read a article saying that when comparing the skulls that they uncovered in israel to modern day jews only 2% had the same type of skull. So maybe it has to do with skulls and haplogroups or even haplotypes.

[TimeKiller]

Ancient Jews?

Josh,


So they have found evidence of the ancient jews coming from j2a?

[josh w.]

TimeKiller, the origin of the J2a subclade is still unclear. As Tzvi notes, the J2 Y dna project has done a great job of associating some J2a haplotype clusters with Jewish ancestry as well as other important findings. However this may not imply that the clusters were part of the Jewish population in ancient Israel. The project did not state that the clusters were uniquely Jewish. If the clusters were present in the Near East or Mediterranian including the Black Sea area, the clusters might have been part of ancient Israel but they might also entered the Jewish population at a later date.
I might fall into one of the clusters--the J2a* epsilon cluster. I have an 11/12 match in Lebanon as well as 11/12 Samaritan matches. This suggests at least Levantine or Canaanite origins if convergence can be ruled out.

[josh w.]

P.S. I still am not aware of any direct test of dna from ancient Israel. Given all the remains I am a bit puzzled as to why this has not yet been done despite religious prohibitions. Most tantalizing are reports from the "Jesus (?)" family ossuary. The book version of this "project" reports that mtdna found in the remains are of a clade commonly found in Israel and the Jordan Valley but the mtdna haplogroup was not identified. Dna extracts were attempted from a dig at Ashkelon but I have not seen any results. As I have mentioned previously, there was an anecdotal report on this forum that a National Geographic project had found Y dna J2 in Phoenician remains.

[josh w.]

Tzvi, the Samaritan matches are listed under both headings. Under the haplogroup heading they are simply listed as J with no subclade identified. However from the published studies of the Samartian families I am virtually certain that I match one of the J2 families on the basis of my allele values.