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  • #76
    S22

    Originally posted by J Man
    Wells actually missed an SNP in haplogroup J that is upstream of M304. Now this was not his fault since it was discovered after he wrote The Journey of Man. This SNP is S22 which is haplogroup IJ.



    Y-DNA: J2a*
    J Man, thanks for pointing it out. I didnt realize there was a S22. It helps me better understand the transition between F to J.

    regards,

    bob

    Comment


    • #77
      subclade

      Originally posted by josh w.
      Bob, there was one study (by Parfitt?) that found the CMH among the Bene Israel. However caution was urged regarding overgeneralization. If anyone is interested, the dual CMHs issue including FTDNA's strategy was extensively explored on a Roots Web discussion including Dienekes and Ellen Coffman. I mention this because I don't know the subclade for the Bene Israel CMHs although my guess would be J2.
      In that case, it would be neat to compare sub clades of Bene Israel to J2 Cohens. I recall Coffman suggesting that M172 composed a little less than 48% of Ashkanazi Cohanim. Any idea what percentage of Sephardi Cohanim are J2? I recall reading 24% of Sephardi Jews are J2.

      regards,

      bob

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by bob_chasm
        J Man, thanks for pointing it out. I didnt realize there was a S22. It helps me better understand the transition between F to J.

        regards,

        bob

        No problem Bob.




        Y-DNA: J2a*

        Comment


        • #79
          Age of J2

          Originally posted by josh w.
          Bob, in Dienekes Dec. 2005 blog on the CMH he quotes from a lecture by Ekins, "The significant presence of CMH chromosomes in deeply divergent clades J1 and J2 (> 20 kybp) ..." I hadn't seen the blog until today but Ekins raised the same concerns about having the CMH in two different clades and the dangers of possibly misinterpreting the implications of having CMH STRs. It also turns out that about 3% of CMHs are in haplogroups other than J.
          Regarding M304, Genographic project states, "Time of emergence: 15,000 to 10,000 years ago. Place of Origin: Fertile Crescent. Climate: Ice Age ending."

          Regarding M172, Genographic project states, "Time of emergence: 10,000 years ago. Place of Origin: Fertile Crescent."

          Unfortunately it doesnt say anything about the age of M410 or M12.

          regards,

          bob

          Comment


          • #80
            Bob, I only have second hand information on the quote from Ekins and do not know the source of his contention. I suppose estimates will vary dependent on the nature of the sample tested and the statistical procedures used.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by bob_chasm
              Regarding M304, Genographic project states, "Time of emergence: 15,000 to 10,000 years ago. Place of Origin: Fertile Crescent. Climate: Ice Age ending."

              Regarding M172, Genographic project states, "Time of emergence: 10,000 years ago. Place of Origin: Fertile Crescent."

              Unfortunately it doesnt say anything about the age of M410 or M12.

              regards,

              bob

              According to the Sengupta paper I have recently been linked to M410 is 13000-15000 years old and M102 is 6000 years old. It is very interesting to note that in the paper Sengupta says that both J2a and J2b may actually pre date agriculture in India.



              Y-DNA: J2a*

              Comment


              • #82
                Congrats J Man

                Originally posted by J Man
                According to the Sengupta paper I have recently been linked to M410 is 13000-15000 years old and M102 is 6000 years old. It is very interesting to note that in the paper Sengupta says that both J2a and J2b may actually pre date agriculture in India.



                Y-DNA: J2a*
                Am I to take it that you got your dys 413 results?

                Denekes blog said J2 in India is associated with high caste, Brahmin (Hindu Priesthood). I find it interesting, dont you, that both Jewish and Hindu priests have J2s among them?

                I would be interested in knowing if any M102s belong to the Bene Israel of India. It would also be interesting to find out what percentage of Ash vs Sephardi Cohanim are M102. Sengupta may be right. What is Sengupta's explaination for why J2a is restricted to Upper caste Brahmins of NW India, Pakistani Muslims but absent among tribals, while J2b is more evenly distributed across India and also found among tribals?

                regards,

                bob

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by bob_chasm
                  Am I to take it that you got your dys 413 results?

                  Denekes blog said J2 in India is associated with high caste, Brahmin (Hindu Priesthood). I find it interesting, dont you, that both Jewish and Hindu priests have J2s among them?

                  I would be interested in knowing if any M102s belong to the Bene Israel of India. It would also be interesting to find out what percentage of Ash vs Sephardi Cohanim are M102. Sengupta may be right. What is Sengupta's explaination for why J2a is restricted to Upper caste Brahmins of NW India, Pakistani Muslims but absent among tribals, while J2b is more evenly distributed across India and also found among tribals?

                  regards,

                  bob


                  Hi Bob,

                  No I have not recieved my DYS413 results yet unfortunately.


                  Yes I do find it very interesting that both Jewish and Hindu priests have high percentages of J2 among them.


                  As for you last question the paper can answer it better than I can I am sure. Here it is: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...8_p202-221.pdf



                  Y-DNA: J2a*

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    percentages

                    Originally posted by J Man
                    Hi Bob,

                    Yes I do find it very interesting that both Jewish and Hindu priests have high percentages of J2 among them.


                    Y-DNA: J2a*
                    Actually the "percentage" of Hindu priests that belong to haplogroup J is not high. For example, over 50% of Hindu priests belong to haplogroup R, but only 16% belong to haplogroup J. Haplogroup J is found in less than 10% of India's population. The odd thing is that while R is common among all Indians, J2a is almost absent among tribal Indians. In contrast, 87% of Cohens belong to haplogroup J (45% of Ash Cohens belong to J2).

                    I find it fascinating that Christianity and Islam seem to have spread to populations where we find haplogroup J. Personally, I havent been able to find a single 12/12 match in India.

                    regards,

                    bob
                    Last edited by bob_chasm; 20 December 2006, 11:12 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Some of the J2 in south Asia appears to be of recent vintage. I have 9/12 matches with individuals in India and Pakistan (MRCA about 5000 years ago?) My guess is that the eastern migration of this line was connected with trade. The reason is that I also have central Asian matches that are further east than Greek and Persian military expansions, e.g. 9/12 matches with Chinese Uygurs and Russian Altais.
                      Again I am not sure that all CMHs (including but not limited to Indian CMHs) would be so classified under FTDNA's 12 marker system. J Man what was the source of the estimate of Jewish J2 CMHs. Some of these individuals might suffer the same fate.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by josh w.
                        Some of the J2 in south Asia appears to be of recent vintage. I have 9/12 matches with individuals in India and Pakistan (MRCA about 5000 years ago?) My guess is that the eastern migration of this line was connected with trade. The reason is that I also have central Asian matches that are further east than Greek and Persian military expansions, e.g. 9/12 matches with Chinese Uygurs and Russian Altais.
                        Again I am not sure that all CMHs (including but not limited to Indian CMHs) would be so classified under FTDNA's 12 marker system. J Man what was the source of the estimate of Jewish J2 CMHs. Some of these individuals might suffer the same fate.
                        I too, match 9/12 with a single Uygur Chinese of Central Asian origin. At this level I also match 2 Syrian Arabs and a Russian Ash Levite. At two steps I match a Belarus Ash Cohen and 2 Ukranian Ash Cohens. At two steps I also match 2 lay Ashkanazi from Lithuania and Belarus. In addition, at two steps, I match a LUR and an Iranian. There are several European matches, but no other Middle Eastern/ Persian/ Indian matches in the FTDNA database. At one step there are matches from UK, Scotland, Armenia, Moldovia and Andalusia. I have a 12/12 match in Italy. I have also skimmed thru the M410 project, but didnt find any 12/12 matches from India. The closest J2 from India in FTDNA's database is 4 steps away.

                        regards,

                        bob

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by josh w.
                          J Man what was the source of the estimate of Jewish J2 CMHs. Some of these individuals might suffer the same fate.


                          What do you mean by this josh?



                          Y-DNA: J2a*

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by bob_chasm
                            I too, match 9/12 with a single Uygur Chinese of Central Asian origin. At this level I also match 2 Syrian Arabs and a Russian Ash Levite. At two steps I match a Belarus Ash Cohen and 2 Ukranian Ash Cohens. At two steps I also match 2 lay Ashkanazi from Lithuania and Belarus. In addition, at two steps, I match a LUR and an Iranian. There are several European matches, but no other Middle Eastern/ Persian/ Indian matches in the FTDNA database. At one step there are matches from UK, Scotland, Armenia, Moldovia and Andalusia. I have a 12/12 match in Italy. I have also skimmed thru the M410 project, but didnt find any 12/12 matches from India. The closest J2 from India in FTDNA's database is 4 steps away.

                            regards,

                            bob


                            Interesting I also have quite a few Ashkenazi matches at the 2 and 3 step levels. At 3 steps though I have many matches with Js and J1s which clearly though are not that closely related to me in time. I think the high proportion of matches with Ashkenazi men is because they are very well represented in the FTDNA database.



                            Y-DNA: J2a*

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              J Man, what was the source of the statement that 45% of Ashkenazi Cohen's are J2. Also by Cohens did you mean people named Cohen.

                              It is difficult to have a good picture of the pattern of our respective matches. Part of the problem is the comparitive overrepresentaion of Jews in the FTDNA database.(Over 80% of my 12/12 matches are Jewish by surname and the remainder could be converts from Judaism) In addition my 9/12 matches are only listed in the "Haplogroup" section but not in the "REO" section. I expect that my listed 9/12 matches are an underestimate of my actual 9/12 matches because only my SNP'd matches were listed. In any event, having both European (including Jewish) and south Asian J2 matches on the same branch suggests recent migration to India from the Middle East, i.e. compared to the time of Neolithic expansion.
                              Last edited by josh w.; 20 December 2006, 08:16 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by josh w.
                                J Man, what was the source of the statement that 45% of Ashkenazi Cohen's are J2. Also by Cohens did you mean people named Cohen.

                                It is difficult to have a good picture of the pattern of our respective matches. Part of the problem is the comparitive overrepresentaion of Jews in the FTDNA database.(Over 80% of my 12/12 matches are Jewish by surname and the remainder could be converts from Judaism) In addition my 9/12 matches are only listed in the "Haplogroup" section but not in the "REO" section. I expect that my listed 9/12 matches are an underestimate of my actual 9/12 matches because only my SNP'd matches were listed. In any event, having both European (including Jewish) and south Asian J2 matches on the same branch suggests recent migration to India from the Middle East, i.e. compared to the time of Neolithic expansion.

                                Josh I think that was Bob who said that 45% or Cohens are J2 not me.


                                Yes there could have easily been recent migration to India from the Middle East.



                                Y-DNA: J2a*

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