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  • #61
    Interesting. one of my 12/12 matches is also a 21/25 match with someone who was tested as J2a*. However another 12/12 match was tested as J2d.
    Last edited by josh w.; 12 December 2006, 06:55 PM.

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    • #62
      J2a1*

      Originally posted by J Man
      Hi Bob,


      Then under the current nomeclature you are J2a1* since you have DYS413<18.

      Right now I am J2a* and I am anxiously awaiting my results which have been delayed at FTDNA for DYS413. I will most likely also have DYS413<18 which will then make me J2a1*. I have to waite and see though.



      Y-DNA: J2a*
      J Man, I could be J2a1*, but also J2a1f, J2a1g, J2a1h or J2a1j. Currently FTDNA doesnt test for these subclades under DYS 413<18. Let us know when you get your results.

      regards,

      bob

      Comment


      • #63
        J1 and J2

        Originally posted by josh w.
        Bob's results suggest that he is J2*, but definitely belongs to J2. I am still unsure about the use of the concept of the CMH to apply to a particular haplotype. The problem is that the haplotype developed long before any of the major Western religions and is not unique to any group in the Middle East. Historically it was first found among Cohens, that is, among people named Cohen or with historical evidence of that background. Most people with this haplotype are not Cohens. Having the CMH does not automatically mean that one has a Cohanic background even if one is Jewish. A further complication arises because although most of the early Cohen subjects were J1, the CMH has also been found among J2s including a few Italian Cohens. I don't know enough about genetics to understand how the same haplotype would appear in different subclades although such outcomes appear to be common. Is it simply a result of convergence. In any event J1s and J2s are not closely related having diverged over 20,000 years ago. To further complicate matters even more, most Semitic J1 CMHs are not Jewish. I can't think of any resolution of this situation that wouldn't offend someone.
        I seem to remember, Spencer Wells saying J haplogroup is 15,000-20,000 years old and J1 and J2 sub clades only 8,000-10,000 years old i.e. Neolithic. He mentions this when contrasting J ancestors with the ancestors of the R haplogroup who emerged 35 to 40 k years ago from Africa. Have you read anything about the age of the subclades of J2?

        regards,

        bob
        Last edited by bob_chasm; 12 December 2006, 07:41 PM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by bob_chasm
          J Man, I could be J2a1*, but also J2a1f, J2a1g, J2a1h or J2a1j. Currently FTDNA doesnt test for these subclades under DYS 413<18. Let us know when you get your results.

          regards,

          bob

          Yes I suppose that you could be in one of those sub clades ans so could I but I do not think that very many people are. We may be in a sub clade that has not even been discovered yet. I will let you know about my results when I get them.


          Have you had DYS445 tested at all Bob? Because a value of 7 or below at that marker means you are J2a1k.




          Y-DNA: J2a*

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by J Man
            Yes I suppose that you could be in one of those sub clades ans so could I but I do not think that very many people are. We may be in a sub clade that has not even been discovered yet. I will let you know about my results when I get them.


            Have you had DYS445 tested at all Bob? Because a value of 7 or below at that marker means you are J2a1k.




            Y-DNA: J2a*
            J Man, I havent tested for dys445. I will probably wait until FTDNA offers dys 445 testing. I havent read much on its age and frequency in various populations. Do you have any information on it? Also, have you read anything about the age of M410 and M12 lineages? I seem to be getting a wide range of opinions. Spencer Wells says M172 is a Neolithic marker 8 to 10 k years old in his new book. Therefore, shouldnt M 410 and M12 be younger than that?

            regards,

            bob

            Comment


            • #66
              Bob, DiGiacomo for example, lists Batwing estimates of around 19,000 years for J1 and J2, although MRCA estimates were about half that length. There is a difference between when these subclades first appeared and when they spread in the Neolithic period.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by bob_chasm
                J Man, I havent tested for dys445. I will probably wait until FTDNA offers dys 445 testing. I havent read much on its age and frequency in various populations. Do you have any information on it? Also, have you read anything about the age of M410 and M12 lineages? I seem to be getting a wide range of opinions. Spencer Wells says M172 is a Neolithic marker 8 to 10 k years old in his new book. Therefore, shouldnt M 410 and M12 be younger than that?

                regards,

                bob

                Bob, I am not sure how old or where and in what frequencies J2a1k is found at. I just know that it is a fairly newly discovered sub clade of J2a1. According to the M410 project the M410 mutation happened in West Asia (I am thinking possibly Anatolia) but it does not give a date. M410 and M12 are definately younger than M172 because they are downstream from M172.


                I would like to find out the age of M410 and where it really originated.



                Y-DNA: J2a*

                Comment


                • #68
                  Bob, in Dienekes Dec. 2005 blog on the CMH he quotes from a lecture by Ekins, "The significant presence of CMH chromosomes in deeply divergent clades J1 and J2 (> 20 kybp) ..." I hadn't seen the blog until today but Ekins raised the same concerns about having the CMH in two different clades and the dangers of possibly misinterpreting the implications of having CMH STRs. It also turns out that about 3% of CMHs are in haplogroups other than J.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by josh w.
                    Bob, in Dienekes Dec. 2005 blog on the CMH he quotes from a lecture by Ekins, "The significant presence of CMH chromosomes in deeply divergent clades J1 and J2 (> 20 kybp) ..." I hadn't seen the blog until today but Ekins raised the same concerns about having the CMH in two different clades and the dangers of possibly misinterpreting the implications of having CMH STRs. It also turns out that about 3% of CMHs are in haplogroups other than J.

                    Wow now that is strange. What haplogroups would those be Josh?



                    Y-DNA: J2a*

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      J subclades

                      Originally posted by josh w.
                      Bob, in Dienekes Dec. 2005 blog on the CMH he quotes from a lecture by Ekins, "The significant presence of CMH chromosomes in deeply divergent clades J1 and J2 (> 20 kybp) ..." I hadn't seen the blog until today but Ekins raised the same concerns about having the CMH in two different clades and the dangers of possibly misinterpreting the implications of having CMH STRs. It also turns out that about 3% of CMHs are in haplogroups other than J.
                      Hammer's work has it's critics, but they need to publish their work and allow him and others to respond. Ive read that the probablity of random CMH convergence is 1 in 10,000. In a population of six billion that could add up to a lot of random CMH convergence. CMH in the same haplogroup/ subclade is probably more meaningful. For example CMH in J1.

                      I havent been able to come up with anything on the age of M410 and M12. If you see anything please point it out. Its interesting to see such a wide range of ages for sub clades J1 and J2. Wells says J2 is a Neolithic marker about 10 k years old. Ive seen others say it could be as old as 23kybp.


                      regards,

                      bob

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        My last post on this topic. Perhaps Wells was referring to the age at which J2 spread. Ekins actually proposed a "selection" rule involving an increased number of STRs for separating "real" (I am not clear on what term he actually used) CMHs from the rest. The problem of course is what to name the rest--this is what I meant by being unable to come up with a resolution that wouldn't offend someone. With empirically based selection rules there are also the issues of false positives-telling someone they are CMHs when they are not and even worse, false negatives- telling someone they are not CMHs when they really are. I wonder if any of these problems arose when FTDNA went to a larger marker definition of CMH.
                        Last edited by josh w.; 13 December 2006, 06:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          J

                          Originally posted by josh w.
                          My last post on this topic. Perhaps Wells was referring to the age at which J2 spread. Ekins actually proposed a "selection" rule involving an increased number of STRs for separating "real" (I am not clear on what term he actually used) CMHs from the rest. The problem of course is what to name the rest--this is what I meant by being unable to come up with a resolution that wouldn't offend someone. With empirically based selection rules there are also the issues of false positives-telling someone they are CMHs when they are not and even worse, false negatives- telling someone they are not CMHs when they really are. I wonder if any of these problems arose when FTDNA went to a larger marker definition of CMH.



                          Hi Josh, regarding Haplogroup J, in Deep Ancestry pg 214-215, Wells states, "Ancestral line: "Adam" -> M168 -> M89 -> M304 The patriarch of haplogroup J was born around 15,000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent, a region today that includes Israel, ....."

                          Regarding J1, "Haplogroup J1 emerged during the Neolithic Revolution in the Middle East. ...."

                          Regarding the Neolithic Revolution on pg. 64 he states, "The details of what happened during the Neolithic Revolution have been pieced together painstakingly over the past few decades. What seems clear is that suddenly, around 10,000 years ago, people in the Middle East began to settle down and grow their own food. ..."

                          Regarding J2, "The M172 marker defines a major subset of haplogroup J, which arose from the M89 lineage. ...."

                          In the "Journey of Man" pg. 182, Wells describes, "The spread of Y- chromosome lineages around the world" in which M172 is described as 10,000 years ago.

                          On the convergence and divergence issue, I think future discovery of more recent haplogroup sub clades in the Cohen population may help limit this effect.

                          Changing the subject, do you know about the dna markers among the Bene Israel of India?

                          regards,

                          bob
                          Last edited by bob_chasm; 14 December 2006, 10:00 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Bob, there was one study (by Parfitt?) that found the CMH among the Bene Israel. However caution was urged regarding overgeneralization. If anyone is interested, the dual CMHs issue including FTDNA's strategy was extensively explored on a Roots Web discussion including Dienekes and Ellen Coffman. I mention this because I don't know the subclade for the Bene Israel CMHs although my guess would be J2.
                            Last edited by josh w.; 14 December 2006, 11:43 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Defining CMHs

                              P.S. On the Roots Web discussion, there was not universal support of FTDNA's strategy for defining CMHs

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by bob_chasm
                                Hi Josh, regarding Haplogroup J, in Deep Ancestry pg 214-215, Wells states, "Ancestral line: "Adam" -> M168 -> M89 -> M304 The patriarch of haplogroup J was born around 15,000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent, a region today that includes Israel, ....."

                                Regarding J1, "Haplogroup J1 emerged during the Neolithic Revolution in the Middle East. ...."

                                Regarding the Neolithic Revolution on pg. 64 he states, "The details of what happened during the Neolithic Revolution have been pieced together painstakingly over the past few decades. What seems clear is that suddenly, around 10,000 years ago, people in the Middle East began to settle down and grow their own food. ..."

                                Regarding J2, "The M172 marker defines a major subset of haplogroup J, which arose from the M89 lineage. ...."

                                In the "Journey of Man" pg. 182, Wells describes, "The spread of Y- chromosome lineages around the world" in which M172 is described as 10,000 years ago.

                                On the convergence and divergence issue, I think future discovery of more recent haplogroup sub clades in the Cohen population may help limit this effect.

                                Changing the subject, do you know about the dna markers among the Bene Israel of India?

                                regards,

                                bob

                                Wells actually missed an SNP in haplogroup J that is upstream of M304. Now this was not his fault since it was discovered after he wrote The Journey of Man. This SNP is S22 which is haplogroup IJ.



                                Y-DNA: J2a*

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