J2f

[J Man]

That's odd, J Man. I am J2a* and am also long-headed. It seems to run in the family, at least as far back as my paternal line great-grandfather.

Intersting stuff ylgitn. The only other person in my family who has also measured their head dimensions is my brother and he is also long headed. I am not really completely sure but to me my paternal grandfather's head looks like it may be what they call either brachycephalic (broad headed) or mesocephalic which is in the middle. My father I think is also either brachycephalic or mesocephalic.

[lgmayka]

There far are more Jews classified as J2 than J1. Moreover, many J2a1b individuals are assigned the Cohen Modal and have an oral tradition of being a Cohen. And there appear to be a significant amount of levites as J2 which justifies J2 Cohens.

What we really need are statistically valid unbiased samples. Until then, you may make assertions, but others make contrary assertions.

To be fair, please do remember that FTDNA is very interested in this topic, and does have access to a large body of statistics that we don't have. However, FTDNA does not use the larger term 'priestly class', only the more specific 'Cohen'.

[josh w.]

Lawrence I agree. It would be nice if FTDNA publishes it's findings on it's new definition of the CMH and the relations between the CMH and J subclades (others on RootsWeb and the author of the Wikipedia article on haplogroup J share this view). So far, around 70% of those in the "old" CMH "cluster" fall within J1.

As for Levites, the genetic history is probably complex. There may have been other conversions in the Black Sea and eastern European areas beside Khazar conversions that contributed to the presence of R1a among Levites. Some of my J2 matches have Levite backgrounds.

[TimeKiller]

levite j1

I have matches to levite j1's.I'm assuming that j1 is just a higher percentage in the cohen modal.I think we can discuss this until we are blue in the fingers but the conclusion will not come out until more samples are given or they advance in anthropology techniques.


TK

[josh w.]

Clarification, the Levite R1a pattern was probably due to a single founder effect. The source population could not be identified, i.e. there are a number of possible canditates in the region. Of course, the modal haplogroup for Sephardic Levites is J.

[dentate]

Hello Josh,

Stumbled by the forum today after many months of absence--sometimes the discussions just get too bizarre and irrational and I can't tolerate the mix of science and biblical literalism anymore.

I am a member of the Jewish J2a1b "sigma" group which has over 80 members in the FTDNA database. Yet I agree that there is absolutely no way of knowing when the MRCA became Jewish. It is well documented that there was great mutual interest between Hellenic and Judaic civilizations in the ancient Near East and conversions into Judaism probably continued up until the rise of Christianity. The whole Mediterranean Basin including Greece and Rome is so full of J2 that all bets are off as far as differentiating between a lineage that was Jewish in 3000 BCE and one that became Jewish in 200 BCE. Lacking genetic data from those time, we cannot conclude much because of time, bottlenecks, and drift. And unlike mtDNA, Y chromosomes don't preserve well.

The predominant CMH haplotype falls into J1 and overlaps with my group at the 12 marker level. NOT ONE of the J2a1b folks who have this haplotype in my 80+ group has a family tradition of being Cohanim, as far as any have communicated to me. There IS a J2 group with a Cohen tradition that Bonnie Schrack has studied, and which she calls "pre-J2a1k" because of its STR resemblance to classic J2a1k. There were competing clans of Cohanim even in Biblical times, so the dominance of one over the other today may not say much about which one is more ancient.

[josh w.]

Jeff, good to hear your voice again. Agree with all your points especially the first paragraph.
Josh