Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mediterranean Basin Y DNA Structure

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mediterranean Basin Y DNA Structure

    The PDF study by Capelli and his colleagues from various Universities has been presented to those members of project groups through FTDNA who match the DYS's 388, 393, 392, 19, 390, 391 in the Capelli Study. Are there any of you who have been matched to a number from this study and if so what are your thoughts as to what this means to you? I've been matched to 88/ R1*/ 1 ESC & 1 CYP in order from the DYS list noted above 12, 13, 13, 13, 24, 11. I'm not too sure what that means other than my six DYS's matched two subjects. If anyone can shed light as to what the big picture is; I and possibly others thank you.

  • #2
    Originally posted by iberiandave
    The PDF study by Capelli and his colleagues from various Universities has been presented to those members of project groups through FTDNA who match the DYS's 388, 393, 392, 19, 390, 391 in the Capelli Study. Are there any of you who have been matched to a number from this study and if so what are your thoughts as to what this means to you? I've been matched to 88/ R1*/ 1 ESC & 1 CYP in order from the DYS list noted above 12, 13, 13, 13, 24, 11. I'm not too sure what that means other than my six DYS's matched two subjects. If anyone can shed light as to what the big picture is; I and possibly others thank you.
    Iberiandave,

    Before giving my opinion on the issue you raise, I would like to quote a short text from this site:

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbhdjm/course...l/MigEvol.html


    “By population structure, population geneticists mean that, instead of a single, simple population, populations are subdivided in some way. The overall "population of populations" is often called a metapopulation, while the individual component populations are often called, well ... subpopulations, but also local populations, or demes. In fact, in many real populations, there may not be any obvious individual populations or substructure at all, and the populations are continuous. However, even in effectively continuous populations, different areas can have different gene frequencies, because the whole metapopulation is not panmictic. For instance, among humans, Scotland, the North of England, and London have some quite major language differences, suggesting substructure, but you would be hard put to find an exact boundary where there is a changeover. Such populations are structured, but continuously, in space.

    IMPORTANCE OF POPULATION STRUCTURE
    If populations are subdivided, they can evolve apart, somewhat independently. Population structure allows populations to diversify. This is the reason why population structure is a very important part of evolutionary genetics.”

    This text explain well the purpose of Capelli’s paper, he and the co-authors state in the summary that “the Mediterranean region has been characterised by a number of pre-historical and historical demographic events whose legacy on the current genetic landscape is still a matter of debate. In order to investigate the degree of population structure across the Mediterranean, we have investigated Y chromosome variation in a large dataset of Mediterranean populations, 11 of which are first described here. Our analyses identify four main clusters in the Mediterranean that can be labelled as North Africa, Arab, Central-East andWest Mediterranean. In particular, Near Eastern samples tend to separate according to the presence of Arab Y chromosome lineages, suggesting that the Arab expansion played a major role in shaping the current genetic structuring within the Fertile Crescent.”
    Further on, they write “PC results were shaped by hgs P*(xR1a1), J* (xJ2) and DE along axis one (loading factors: 0.484, −0.292, and −0.299, respectively) and by hgs J2 and DE on axis 2 (loading factors: 0.253 and −0.324, respectively). The PC plot suggested the presence of four main groups (Fig. 3a): 1) North Africa, 2) Near East/Arabs (including Muslim Lebanese and Ashkenazi Jews), 3) Central-East Mediterranean grouping, including Christian Lebanese and 4)West Mediterranean”. And, more importantly: “Of interest is the genetic separation that West Mediterranean samples from Iberia display vs. Central and East Mediterranean samples, as shown in this study by Y chromosome SNPs and STRs analyses and by autosomal data (Rosenberg et al. 2002).”
    Thus, assuming that my understanding is correct, if you are of Iberian descent, your genetic coincidence with haplotype 88 in Table A1 would be indicative of Central-East Mediterranean paternal ancestors who might have arrived in Iberia in Historical Times.
    I myself have Spanish paternal ancestry and match haplotype 62 (one Southern Italian and one Eastern Sicilian, likely of Greek descent).
    Gentlemen, if I am wrong, please correct me.

    Comment


    • #3
      A fascinating topic. Are there modal haplotypes for the 4 main "branches" of people in the Mediterranian? I saw on another website that there has been Iberian cluster that has been identified. Whenever I find research like that, my numbers seem to fall in between two or more of those distinct groupings.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes in this study they have North Africa, Arab, Central-East, and West Mediterranean. Have you read this Capelli study?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Andrew M
          A fascinating topic. Are there modal haplotypes for the 4 main "branches" of people in the Mediterranian? I saw on another website that there has been Iberian cluster that has been identified. Whenever I find research like that, my numbers seem to fall in between two or more of those distinct groupings.
          Andrew,

          Perhaps you are referring to the article “AN IBERIAN SUB-CLUSTER IS REVEALED IN A PHYLOGENETIC TREE ANALYSIS OF THE Y-CHROMOSOME E3b HAPLOGROUP”, by Robert L. Tarín Jr.
          http://members.tripod.com/~GaryFelix/E3bsubcluster.pdf

          In the Introduction, the author states:
          “Recent analysis of 290 individuals in Y-DNA Haplogroup E3b using the Fluxus Phylogenetic Network Analysis software from www.fluxus-engineering.com has revealed a separate cluster of mostly Iberian origin haplotypes which seem to represent a North African entry into Iberia distinct from the E3b in Europe that may have arisen from Neolithic or other migratory events. A modal value for this Iberian sub-cluster has been determined from the data used and it suggests a match to either the E3b1-beta cluster (E-M78) or E3b2 (E-M81). There were no available SNP results for the haplotypes making up the dataset. It is unknown whether this finding reflects relatively recent gene flow from the Islamic rule of Spain or an older influx possibly from the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians founded and settled many cities in North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. Haplotype matching at www.yhrd.org reveals significant results for Tunisia, North Africa with this Iberian sub-cluster.”

          The paper by Capelli et al. does not restrict its study to haplogroup E3b (see Table A1). http://www.ftdna.com/pdf/capelli2005.pdf

          Comment


          • #6
            If you have not read it Andrew M here it is.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              robe3b,

              I agree with you in your explanation to the complex structure and genetic landscape of the Mediterranean Basin. I didn't do a very good job of being clear with my original post. I want to know who the subjects were in the Capelli study that fall under the category "this study". Are they alive or are these bone samples from sites or both? And what does it mean that I have six DYS's that are matched to one person in East Sicily and One person in Cyprus? Couldn't they have just moved there from somewhere else within the last generation or two? What is Central-East Med? I hope I didn't appear so selfish in my original post as to overlook the complex structure and vast history of the Mediterranean. My family on both sides come from Spain; Rodriguez on both sides, Castro, Beas, and Galarza.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by iberiandave
                If you have not read it Andrew M here it is.
                Thanks for the link, I was actually looking for it. I'm #46 on the list. Most of the matches are in a pretty tight area between Sardinia, Malta, NW Sicily and Tunisia. There's one out in Cyprus also. Now to figure out which of the 4 that means...

                Comment


                • #9
                  You're welcome and happy hunting. I'm sure that with all of the talent on this forum someone can give you nudges in that direction.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    dave:

                    I don't know if your question is still unanswered. Anyway, the samples analyzed in the paper are of actual people living in the Mediterranean. I don' t think there is any study on Y chromosomes of ancient bodies in the mediterranean yet (there are a couple on mtdna, and they're controversial).

                    Matching 6 STR means just that - not a lot. First, 6 STRs are very few to make any precise inference, second, note that the STR data presented in the paper is only from the samples analyzed by the authors, which is from Southern Italy and other Central and Eastern Mediterranean populations. The Spanish data is not original to the study, so it is not reported there. Most likely you have more matches in Spain, but simply, you wouldn't find them there. Note that R1b is typical European and is extremely common in Spain as well as Northern Italy. So it's probably as you say - somebody moved from northern Italy or Spain to Sicily and Cyprus rather than viceversa.

                    Your mtdna M* is rather interesting. Do you have the results somewhere? I guess you must be one of the mediterranean M1's.

                    cacio

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes I have the results on my personal page through FTDNA and I'll copy and paste them on word. I agree with your analysis of the study which you have raised several key points to be explored. Until then I'm on the fence with this Y-DNA Population Structure study. I don't disagree with the premise or intent of it but to use the resluts of data collection from the subjects as end of story doesn't convince me.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by iberiandave; 29 October 2006, 02:46 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        cacio wrote:
                        PHP Code:
                        "I guess you must be one of the mediterranean M1's." 
                        I was matched as M* not M1 is there something about this you know that I don't? I thought M1 and M* are slightly different in that M1 is a branch from M*. Fill me in on the info.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by iberiandave
                          robe3b,

                          I agree with you in your explanation to the complex structure and genetic landscape of the Mediterranean Basin. I didn't do a very good job of being clear with my original post. I want to know who the subjects were in the Capelli study that fall under the category "this study". Are they alive or are these bone samples from sites or both?
                          The new y-chromosomes in the Capelli 2006 study are from contemporary (i.e. living) people. They were from:
                          • East Sicily
                          • South-West Sicily
                          • North-West Sicily
                          • South Italy
                          • Sardinia
                          • Malta
                          • Cyprus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hmmm

                            My cousin's I1b1b is maybe Sardinian..does that mean "we" are there??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              yes

                              Answering my own question I believe "we" are 181

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X