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  • Welsh DNA Markers

    I had a close match to my y-dna write to me and said my marker 448 was 17, it says I'm Welsh.
    He was going by a Welsh Model.
    Is this true ?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Guy
    I had a close match to my y-dna write to me and said my marker 448 was 17, it says I'm Welsh.
    He was going by a Welsh Model.
    Is this true ?
    In a word, no.

    No single marker can, on its own suggest Welsh ancestry. Even a complete analysis of dozens of markers could at best suggest it, and never conclude it, in the absence of other evidence.

    If the close match is VERY close, and they have other proof of being Welsh (besides DNA, I mean) then you might consider the possibility for yourself. But I wouldn't get too excited about it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by vineviz
      In a word, no.

      No single marker can, on its own suggest Welsh ancestry. Even a complete analysis of dozens of markers could at best suggest it, and never conclude it, in the absence of other evidence.

      If the close match is VERY close, and they have other proof of being Welsh (besides DNA, I mean) then you might consider the possibility for yourself. But I wouldn't get too excited about it.

      Thanks for the information, I believe I am of Welsh decent, my 12, 25, 37, 67 markers all came back with close matches to surnames Davies, Gough, Pugh, Henry and Roberts which are all Welsh surnames.

      Comment


      • #4
        Welsh connections are history-dependent.

        I was born in Wales and spoke Welsh, with no English until 5 years old due to my very nationalistic parents' decision. Culturally, I was conciously totally Welsh until my mother explained that both parents, and one with Nordic family name were only Welsh since 850AD, being part-Viking. Not surprising in a still Norse-named Welsh seaport!
        My y dna gives me negligible Welsh matches but plenty in Iceland, Norway and Sweden. Matriline is T.
        Wales contains a nice melting-pot of origins due to wesward population pressures.
        The oldest links are found in the central highlands with many matches in the ancient (pre-refugial?) Basque/Western Irish/Armenian highland/ configuration. A 10,000 BC dated skeleton in Gower has not been sampled, but would be worth a try.
        Then there is the mass of the common paleo and neolithic and Iron Age European DNA types. Fine tuning reveals Celtic, Norse, Germanic and southern European differentials amongst them, from recognised last trimillenial migrations. And in the Industrial Revolution, foreign immigration into the concentrated South Wales coalfield area was numerically greater than to America, leading to a current REO genetic chaos.
        BUT links to the Welsh surnames happily brings the searcher to certain Welshness, at least of the last few centuries. The oldest names (eg Cradock, Owen, Llewelyn) date back to cherished patronymics of pre-Roman times.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by derinos
          I was born in Wales and spoke Welsh, with no English until 5 years old due to my very nationalistic parents' decision. Culturally, I was conciously totally Welsh until my mother explained that both parents, and one with Nordic family name were only Welsh since 850AD, being part-Viking. Not surprising in a still Norse-named Welsh seaport!
          My y dna gives me negligible Welsh matches but plenty in Iceland, Norway and Sweden. Matriline is T.
          Wales contains a nice melting-pot of origins due to wesward population pressures.
          The oldest links are found in the central highlands with many matches in the ancient (pre-refugial?) Basque/Western Irish/Armenian highland/ configuration. A 10,000 BC dated skeleton in Gower has not been sampled, but would be worth a try.
          Then there is the mass of the common paleo and neolithic and Iron Age European DNA types. Fine tuning reveals Celtic, Norse, Germanic and southern European differentials amongst them, from recognised last trimillenial migrations. And in the Industrial Revolution, foreign immigration into the concentrated South Wales coalfield area was numerically greater than to America, leading to a current REO genetic chaos.
          BUT links to the Welsh surnames happily brings the searcher to certain Welshness, at least of the last few centuries. The oldest names (eg Cradock, Owen, Llewelyn) date back to cherished patronymics of pre-Roman times.
          Thanks for that great information on the Welsh DNA types, very interesting, The reason I got my DNA tested was because my surname, which is German, was given to me by my great great grandmother, she never married and had my great grandfather and gave him her maiden name, so I always wonder what my direct male line surname was, thanks to FamilytreeDNA I at least now know that my haplogroup type on my Y-DNA is R1b1c, and I had a perfect match on my 12 markers with the surname Davies, and a genetic distance of 2 on my 25 markers with the surnames Pugh, Gough, Roberts and Henry, and a genectic distance of 4 on my 37 markers with the surname Gough and a genetic distance of 7 on my 67 markers with the surname Pugh.
          So, I believe that's a good clue that my Y-DNA ancestors came from Wales.

          Comment


          • #6
            Welsh connections are history-dependent.

            Guy, of the family names you mention, the oldest is Pugh, originally "Ap Huw" a pre-Roman style of Keltic-Brythonic patronymic.
            Cymry am byth! (Wales prevails!)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Welsh Marker

              I'm curious if you know what your SNP is? I have the alleged same marker identifying my ancestry as Welsh. My Deep Subclade tests reveal R1b1c6.

              Obviously just like you, I have a Germanic last name, but there are many possibilities of origin.

              1. Medieval Welsh meaning "Gweis" young servant (very similar to the Middle English "Yeoman" around Chaucer's time. 1300s.

              2. Ge- meaning district (Anglo Saxon) or Gau (Old High German). Meaning district man - villager.

              3. River Yeo throughout Devon and Somerset counties (meaning valley stream or river district).

              4. Iunge from Latin - Geongra Manna from Old English (found in Beowulf), and iunge men of every pagus/district found Tacitus' Germania in 98 AD.

              5. Yogh and Ogham Runes - possibily identified with Yew. Ogham Runes were written on sticks of yew, as well stones. They are found in SW Wales and Britain as well southern Ireland.

              I'm more led to believe it's closer to #1 but you never know. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace my ancestry beyond 1886 in Boston, MA except that I have an idea they were in Canada (possibly Nova Scotia with its high Celtic settler influences or possibly Acadian). What I do know is that my great grandfather and his father married Irish women.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
                I'm curious if you know what your SNP is? I have the alleged same marker identifying my ancestry as Welsh. My Deep Subclade tests reveal R1b1c6.

                Obviously just like you, I have a Germanic last name, but there are many possibilities of origin.

                1. Medieval Welsh meaning "Gweis" young servant (very similar to the Middle English "Yeoman" around Chaucer's time. 1300s.

                2. Ge- meaning district (Anglo Saxon) or Gau (Old High German). Meaning district man - villager.

                3. River Yeo throughout Devon and Somerset counties (meaning valley stream or river district).

                4. Iunge from Latin - Geongra Manna from Old English (found in Beowulf), and iunge men of every pagus/district found Tacitus' Germania in 98 AD.

                5. Yogh and Ogham Runes - possibily identified with Yew. Ogham Runes were written on sticks of yew, as well stones. They are found in SW Wales and Britain as well southern Ireland.

                I'm more led to believe it's closer to #1 but you never know. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace my ancestry beyond 1886 in Boston, MA except that I have an idea they were in Canada (possibly Nova Scotia with its high Celtic settler influences or possibly Acadian). What I do know is that my great grandfather and his father married Irish women.

                Hello,

                I don't know what my SNP is yet, my 67 markers are on Y-search, if you want to check them out, my ID on Y-search is UYZCQ.
                So far all of my near matches point to Wales.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by derinos
                  Guy, of the family names you mention, the oldest is Pugh, originally "Ap Huw" a pre-Roman style of Keltic-Brythonic patronymic.
                  Cymry am byth! (Wales prevails!)
                  Thanks for that information on the Pugh surname, interesting, like I said, the surnames so far with near matches to me are Davies, Pugh, Gough, Henry, Williams and Roberts.
                  I've read that Davies is a really common surname in Wales, like Jones.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Snp

                    Have your SNP tests done. This SNP is primarily used to determine or "locate" origin of mutation. I'm also looking at autosomal testing even though I understand it's a bit controversial because it tries to determine your overall ethnicity. I can see it being important for somebody who is adopted and not knowing who their parents are or not knowing anything about their recent ancestry (like me).

                    So far I haven't found anybody with R1b1c6 with a DYS 448 = 17. After doing some extensive web browsing research on the data available, to me it appears to be an ancient marker marking a transition from Northern Iberian coastline (from Galicia to Basque Country). Primarily found in Cantabria's Leibana district.The age of the marker being from 2,000-9,000 years old. If it's around 9,000 years old then I wonder how closely related it is to the Paleolithic Cave region of Altamira. If it's 2,000 I wonder how closely it's related to migrating Celts to Ireland and SW England from Iberia or if it's younger that it may be related to Basque Roman soldiers who deployed to Britain.

                    The only thing that seems certain is that R1b1c6 originated in Iberia somewhere.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SNP's

                      Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
                      Have your SNP tests done. This SNP is primarily used to determine or "locate" origin of mutation. I'm also looking at autosomal testing even though I understand it's a bit controversial because it tries to determine your overall ethnicity. I can see it being important for somebody who is adopted and not knowing who their parents are or not knowing anything about their recent ancestry (like me).

                      So far I haven't found anybody with R1b1c6 with a DYS 448 = 17. After doing some extensive web browsing research on the data available, to me it appears to be an ancient marker marking a transition from Northern Iberian coastline (from Galicia to Basque Country). Primarily found in Cantabria's Leibana district.The age of the marker being from 2,000-9,000 years old. If it's around 9,000 years old then I wonder how closely related it is to the Paleolithic Cave region of Altamira. If it's 2,000 I wonder how closely it's related to migrating Celts to Ireland and SW England from Iberia or if it's younger that it may be related to Basque Roman soldiers who deployed to Britain.

                      The only thing that seems certain is that R1b1c6 originated in Iberia somewhere.
                      Hello,
                      I have the same problem.The Snp(+)was confirmed,but nobody knows how old it is!
                      Nas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nas
                        Hello,
                        I have the same problem.The Snp(+)was confirmed,but nobody knows how old it is!
                        Nas
                        Ahhh.. the Niall of the Nine Hostages DNA folk, or at least more closely related than I am. Yeah I've seen several stories of how R1b1c7 may have arrived from France (Britanny?) around the early 500 AD. Then I've seen stories where R1b1c7 is a newer mutation that may have spawned off of R1b1c6 and R1b1c8 the same thing. There's so much out there and the amount of surveys to me seem to be inadequate. I wished they would stop focusing so much on the aborignes who could probably care less what the scientists have to say (their mythologies or legends of origin have more clout in my opinion, or at least they have a horded memory of the actual events).

                        Whereas us "stupid" European people did nothing but hunt and pick berries, and did very little to contribute to the ancient literature and storytelling of origins. I'm just kidding. Actually most of the Western European stuff got snuffed out by Christianity. A Middle Eastern religion essentially abolished, and/or corrupted most of the ancient Western European mythologies, legends, etc., essentially leaving us little to go by the mid 300s when Christianity became well established and recognized by Rome. This is the starting point when the Western Europeans lost a lot of their ancient cultural heritage. So origin myths are scattered or virtually non-existent in Europe. It's real easy to see the Christian influence in the Germanic mythologies of Odin (Woden), etc.; very contaminated to say the least.

                        My point being is that we have to rely upon technology and science to give us answers and yet the wide spectrum given of landscape and time does not help much. It's like their saying, "Yeah your marker originated somewhere in Western Europe between 35,000 to 10,000 years ago". To me might as well say my marker originated on earth from 1.5 b.y.a. to now, between the continents of Africa, Asia and North America. I hate generalities!

                        There's a lot to say for those ancient mythologies and legends.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
                          Have your SNP tests done. This SNP is primarily used to determine or "locate" origin of mutation. I'm also looking at autosomal testing even though I understand it's a bit controversial because it tries to determine your overall ethnicity. I can see it being important for somebody who is adopted and not knowing who their parents are or not knowing anything about their recent ancestry (like me).

                          So far I haven't found anybody with R1b1c6 with a DYS 448 = 17. After doing some extensive web browsing research on the data available, to me it appears to be an ancient marker marking a transition from Northern Iberian coastline (from Galicia to Basque Country). Primarily found in Cantabria's Leibana district.The age of the marker being from 2,000-9,000 years old. If it's around 9,000 years old then I wonder how closely related it is to the Paleolithic Cave region of Altamira. If it's 2,000 I wonder how closely it's related to migrating Celts to Ireland and SW England from Iberia or if it's younger that it may be related to Basque Roman soldiers who deployed to Britain.

                          The only thing that seems certain is that R1b1c6 originated in Iberia somewhere.
                          Yes, my marker 448 is 17, my haplogroup so far found by familytreeda is R1b1c, I've read alot on the web about the Welsh being genetic cousins to the Iberian's and the Basque's, I believe the Iberian's are connected to the Solutreans, who lived in Spain during the ice age, the created the great cave paintings of deer and horses and wooly mamoths, that must be why I want to write on the bathroom wall all the time, it's in my genes ! HA !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            LOL So that determines genetics

                            Originally posted by Guy
                            Yes, my marker 448 is 17, my haplogroup so far found by familytreeda is R1b1c, I've read alot on the web about the Welsh being genetic cousins to the Iberian's and the Basque's, I believe the Iberian's are connected to the Solutreans, who lived in Spain during the ice age, the created the great cave paintings of deer and horses and wooly mamoths, that must be why I want to write on the bathroom wall all the time, it's in my genes ! HA !
                            If that's the case, the Altamira would be close to my ancestral doorstep when R1b1c6 was created or shall I "mutated" into existence. Cantabria, especially Picos De Europa of Asturia and Liebana are really pretty areas. Lots of caves because of the karst topography. I also like caves, especially pretty ones with stalagmites and stalagtites, chamber rooms, underground rivers and waterfalls. The paintings of bison, boars, etc. are just decor and I've found myself numerous times drawing pictures with crayons and fruit juice on the walls. Maybe we're related, distantly that is; I've moved or evolved up with cognitive skills to use permanent markers and spray paint.

                            LOL.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Paleo-Neighbors

                              Originally posted by Arch Yeomans
                              If that's the case, the Altamira would be close to my ancestral doorstep when R1b1c6 was created or shall I "mutated" into existence. Cantabria, especially Picos De Europa of Asturia and Liebana are really pretty areas. Lots of caves because of the karst topography. I also like caves, especially pretty ones with stalagmites and stalagtites, chamber rooms, underground rivers and waterfalls. The paintings of bison, boars, etc. are just decor and I've found myself numerous times drawing pictures with crayons and fruit juice on the walls. Maybe we're related, distantly that is; I've moved or evolved up with cognitive skills to use permanent markers and spray paint.

                              LOL.
                              Hello,
                              I was more North(in France)...but those R1b1c4-guys
                              always controlled the border ...so we never visited...
                              until the British Isles
                              Nas

                              Comment

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