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J1 with the CMH

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  • #16
    For what it's worth ...

    I have told some of my own story elsewhere here; the mystery still persists three months later though with some rays of light breaking through.

    I am J1 with 12 for 12 CMH (22 exact matches). My 92-year old father did not know of any possible Jewish heritage.

    Then again, he had never told us his real birth name (Lipke instead of Lipton); nor did he know until we found his half-sibling Lipkes (he had been out of touch for 89 years) that they believed him to have been adopted based on letters that they passed to us. The letters were indeed persuasive. Just this past week, the Y-DNA results came back from his half-brother (known to have been the biological child of the father). The half-brother and my father matched on 5 out of 12 markers. Heh. Okay .... adopted.

    We have been hunting birth and adoption records since August without success, but with some interesting results unearthed and no final walls in sight yet.

    Anyhow, my 25-marker test yielded seven 1-off matches (24/25) and the 37-marker test a 2-off match to a heavily documented Cohen family with Lithuanian roots recorded as recently as the 1640s. There are 8,000 known people in the family tree through 2005.

    I was 24/25 to all four of those tested from that family line so far. None (except one) were tested to 37-markers; this was the 2-off with my DNA.

    Curiously, though there were (obviously) many maternal names united into the family, the nature of Y-DNA suggests that any relation will be within three or four of the persistent male surnames - Cohen, Judeikin, Caine, Danelin - or variants (Cohn, Kahn et al).

    Alas, the family was heavily European-centric. (Parenthetically, it was very sad to trace through the family book one-after-another who perished in Hitler's camps).

    We have not yet been able to search forward to find a common male ancestor who maps to my father's known birthplace in-or-near Great Falls, MT in 1914. There was a large Jewish community there, though, and we are just now beginning to dig into that, with help from local genealogists. And Mormons.

    Matters are complicated further by persistent, credible but unsubstantiated stories of Native American blood for my father as well.

    What does it all mean? That I'm (probably) one mighty cornfused (former) Cohen ;-).
    Last edited by Russ Lipton; 2 November 2006, 12:46 AM.

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    • #17
      J1 with the CMH

      I'm interested to know if any of you have seen David Clark's CMH Website.

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      • #18
        J1 with the CMH

        Link to Clark's CMH Website:

        http://www.geocities.com/hrhdavid/cmhindex.html

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        • #19
          J1 or J2.

          Originally posted by HapJ1
          Interesting website. However, my understanding is that Kurds and other such groups have J2 CMH and as such, have not shared a common ancestor with J1 Jewish Cohens in more than 10,000/ 15000 years or more.

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          • #20
            Thoughts

            a) The bible says that Abraham was a patrilineal ancestor of Aaron, the first Cohen. So, if you take the biblical genealogy seriously, Abraham ought to have had an early version of the Cohen markers. The bible also calls Abraham "Ur of the Chaldees," suggesting that he was Chaldean. Chaldeans are closely related to Kurds.

            I once read a great article in Biblical Archaeology suggesting that Abraham really came from a different Ur, which (I think) was in Turkey or Syria, and that the priests who compiled the bible centuries after Abraham died put in the bit about "of the Chaldees" and threw everybody else. But, even if Abraham came from a different Ur, he came from an Ur in a part of the world where a lot of the people might have had Kurdish blood.

            So, for someone who for religious or esthetic reasons thinks it would be nice if the bible were true, the cool thing about the Cohen pattern being common among Armenians and Kurds is that it supports the genealogy that the bible gives for Abraham.

            b) Keep in mind that whether Jewish people happen to have the surname "Cohen" or some other surname may have nothing to do with whether they're Cohanim. Plenty of Jews who know they are not Cohanim have the surname Cohen and similar names. It might be interesting to see if a higher percentage of "non-Cohen Cohens" actually carry the Cohen pattern, but, even if that were true, it would be hard to interpret the results. Because, for example, men can lose the ability to pass on Cohen status if they do things like marry widows or divorced women.

            Another issue here is that, in theory, if Abraham and his buddies were the true progenitors of a high percentage of the Jewish people, then the Cohen pattern really should be common among all Jewish populations, including "plain old regular Jews," not just Cohen populations, because all Jews descended from the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel are supposedly descended from Abraham.

            I think the testing evidence supports this hypothesis, because the Cohen pattern is most common among Cohanim but is actually still pretty common among Israelites. The only Jewish population without a weirdly high percentage of the Cohen pattern is the Ashkenazic Levite population.

            In theory, the Cohen pattern should be as common among Levites as among Cohanim, because Cohanim are supposedly descended from Aaron, a member of the tribe of Levi, who, in turn, was supposed to be descended from a greatgrandson of Abraham named Levi. But all Levites who are not Cohanim are also supposed to be descended from Levi. If you believe the bible, and the bible gave us a complete genealogy for Levi (e.g., it didn't leave out hanky panky or adoption), then Levi ought to have ahd Cohen pattern.

            I think the explanation of the high rate of Ashkenazic Levites who have some other pattern is that a few closely related non-Jewish, rich guys married into the Jewish people, rose to prominence and finagled Levite status for their descendants.

            Another explanation could be that non-Jewish men somehow impregnated some wives of Levites, and Jews pretended, for the sake of social harmony, that the boys born of those mothers were the sons of their mothers' husbands, rather than of the biological fathers.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Russ Lipton

              What does it all mean? That I'm (probably) one mighty cornfused (former) Cohen ;-).
              Welcome to the J family as we debate Abraham's haplogroup. What do you think it is?

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              • #22
                CMH 12 Values?

                Originally posted by Russ Lipton
                snip...
                I am J1 with 12 for 12 CMH (22 exact matches). My 92-year old father did not know of any possible Jewish heritage. snip...
                Hi Russ,

                What are the 12 CMH markers.? I know I noted the original 6, but the FTDNA info mentioned they are now using 12 and allowing 3 steps from the modal 12.
                My bro-in-law (TomJ1 - Ysearch P4YH3) just received J1 results with the CMH icon popping up. He's adopted, so we weren't sure of his background, though I always thought N. African was a possibility.

                TIA,

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                • #23
                  12 markers

                  Originally posted by Sonia
                  Hi Russ,

                  What are the 12 CMH markers.? I know I noted the original 6, but the FTDNA info mentioned they are now using 12 and allowing 3 steps from the modal 12.
                  My bro-in-law (TomJ1 - Ysearch P4YH3) just received J1 results with the CMH icon popping up. He's adopted, so we weren't sure of his background, though I always thought N. African was a possibility.

                  TIA,
                  Here is a link:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

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                  • #24
                    Bob, thanks for the information on the 12 marker CMH. ( I am a J2 but not a CMH----3/6 or 6/12). Allbell, if it was Ur of the Chaldees, then given its closeness to Arabia, CMH is more likely J1 than J2.
                    Last edited by josh w.; 7 November 2006, 12:12 PM.

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                    • #25
                      J1 or J2

                      Originally posted by josh w.
                      Bob, thanks for the information on the 12 marker CMH. ( I am a J2 but not a CMH----3/6 or 6/12). Allbell, if it was Ur of the Chaldees, then given its closeness to Arabia, CMH is more likely J1 than J2.
                      FTDNA says Im probably J2 and not CMH, 4/6 and 6/12. I waiting for SNP results. I guess the jury is still out on whether its J1 or J2. You might find the discussion on the forum J2f somewhat interesting too.

                      regards,

                      bob
                      Last edited by bob_chasm; 8 November 2006, 12:18 PM.

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                      • #26
                        perspectives

                        Originally posted by josh w.
                        Bob, thanks for the information on the 12 marker CMH. ( I am a J2 but not a CMH----3/6 or 6/12). Allbell, if it was Ur of the Chaldees, then given its closeness to Arabia, CMH is more likely J1 than J2.
                        For what its worth, descendants of Abraham among the Arabs are considered a minority and know as Adnanites. Many of them are J2. the ancient Arab population doesnt consider itself a descendant of Abraham, are called Qatanites and are consistently J1s. So from the Arab perspective, J1 is a traditional Arab haplogroup and not that of Abraham.

                        regards,

                        bob
                        Last edited by bob_chasm; 8 November 2006, 01:52 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Thanks for the Link and Update Question

                          Originally posted by bob_chasm
                          Hi Bob,

                          Thanks for the link to the site. Tom's 12 for 12 with those listed. Among you J1s out there, what do you suggest for updating to: 25, 37, or 67? I'm thinking that Tom should go to at least 37, but if he ever found an exact match at 67 that would give him a good place to look for recent genealogical connections. N'est pas? Also, are there specific SNPs that should be ordered?

                          TIA,

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                          • #28
                            snp

                            Originally posted by Sonia
                            Hi Bob,

                            Thanks for the link to the site. Tom's 12 for 12 with those listed. Among you J1s out there, what do you suggest for updating to: 25, 37, or 67? I'm thinking that Tom should go to at least 37, but if he ever found an exact match at 67 that would give him a good place to look for recent genealogical connections. N'est pas? Also, are there specific SNPs that should be ordered?

                            TIA,

                            Youre welcome. By the way, you dont need to specify which SNP tests. FTDNA performs a comprehensive test, to determine haplogroup and all possible sub clades. It takes about 6 weeks and costs around $70.

                            regards,

                            bob

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