Originally posted by Jambalaia32
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Which Phonotype is each Haplogroup?
Originally posted by EkiI found this site about human anthropology. I know one should be careful with these things but decided to trust their disclaimer:
"This website is a compendium of genetic studies, anthropological surveys, historical perspectives and photo series addressing various topics related to racial origins, affinities and myths. Its aim is to counter the proliferation of pseudo-scholarship coming from Nordicists (White Nationalists), Afrocentrists, Multi-Racialists and Race-Deniers all over the internet. The accumulated materials are intended only to correct misinformation, not to denigrate any group or advance a political agenda. The webmaster holds no special credentials in any of the fields mentioned."
After looking at the photos of different phenotypes, I think the Tronder phenotype and a hint of East Baltic is the closest to what I look like:
Tronder: A hybrid type of Nordic with Corded and Brünn elements, frequent in the central coastal provinces of Norway, north of the Dovre Mountains; the principal form in Iceland, and among the Frisians, and common in the British Isles.
East Baltic: Racial type of composite nature, found chiefly in northeastern Germany, Poland, the Baltic States, and Finland, although it also occurs sporadically in Sweden and elsewhere. It is a partially reduced Borreby derivative, with Ladogan and Nordic admixture.My haplogrp,lives all over so I don't know where they're native too,honestly. Maybe they're Tronder...?
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Originally posted by NoaideIts not so much about the soil why people wanted to go there but the surplus of resources in the ocean along the coast all the way to the north tradable in continental Europe, then the soil become much less important just as it always have been in northern Norway where the Norwegians mostly live around the icelands at the coast while the Saami live in the fjords. Money is always a good motivation to move, have always been.
Noaide
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Originally posted by Paul_JohnsenWhy would anyone come? The land in the West isn't very rich and fertile. To me it makes little sense to migrate to a relatively marginal area that has already be settled
NoaideLast edited by Noaide; 13 November 2006, 04:05 PM.
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Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
In which direction did people move in order to trade? I would argue that the general rule in Norwegian history is that the people in the marginal areas where forced to go the more central areas in order to trade, not the other way around.
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Originally posted by NoaideOttars Voyage about Norway:
"He said that the Northmen's lands were very long and very narrow. All of it that one might graze or cultivate, that (portion) lies towards the sea; and it is however very rocky in some places; and wild moors lie towards the east and up along towards the cultivated land. Fins live on the moors. And the cultivated land is broadest eastwards, and always the further north the narrower. The eastern part of it might be sixty miles wide, or somewhat wider; and the middle part thirty (miles) or wider; and the northern part, he said, where it was narrowest; so that it might be three miles wide to the moor, and then the moor (is) in some places, as wide as one might traverse in two weeks; and in some places (is) as wide as one might traverse in six days."
Source Ottars Voyage
As I understand Ottar the Norse agricultural settlement was restricted to a thin line along the coast around 890 AD and the main way of transportation must have been by boat, while a thin Saami hunter population lived in the moors uphill from the coastal settlements.
I know there can be quite windy sometimes at the southern and western coast but I do not think that have been a big problem for movement up people, culture and trade between eastern and western Norway and continental Europe.
Noaide
Why would anyone come? The land in the West isn't very rich and fertile. To me it makes little sense to migrate to a relatively marginal area that has already be settled .
In which direction did people move in order to trade? I would argue that the general rule in Norwegian history is that the people in the marginal areas where forced to go the more central areas in order to trade, not the other way around.
The distribution of the different haplogroups in Western Norway and the rest of Scandinavia makes it very difficult to explain the frequency R1b here unless R1b actually was the only haplogroup to migrate in large numbers. I think that is rather unlikely.
Also why didn't R1b move up the Western Baltic coast from Sweden? I would argue given the geographical conditions that this would have been an easier and more rational migration route than a route to Western Norway. And why didn't other people cross the Baltics in large numbers. As an example there are some N3s in Sweden but it is not nearly as frequent as in Finland.
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Originally posted by EkiOK, let's forget the inland route.
According to YHRD, I1a-UN is the most common haplotype in Iceland and in Southern Norway (about 8%) but not in Western Norway (about 3%). If it's true that Western Norway contributed most of the settlers in Iceland, it looks like the haplotype distribution in Western Norway has changed since Iceland was settled (less I1a than elsewhere in Norway and less I1a-UN than in Iceland). This could only be because new non-I1a or low-I1a people settled in Western Norway or that the settlers in Iceland had more I1a-UN than Western Norway in average. My guess is that new non-I1a or low-I1a people settled in Western Norway, maybe by ships from the British Isles and Continental Europe.
http://www.yhrd.org/index.html
To me it actually looks as though Bergen has the highest ratio of UN (41%), but wait; isn't that the place where all those foreigners came?
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Originally posted by NoaideOttars Voyage about Norway:
"He said that the Northmen's lands were very long and very narrow. All of it that one might graze or cultivate, that (portion) lies towards the sea; and it is however very rocky in some places; and wild moors lie towards the east and up along towards the cultivated land. Fins live on the moors. And the cultivated land is broadest eastwards, and always the further north the narrower. The eastern part of it might be sixty miles wide, or somewhat wider; and the middle part thirty (miles) or wider; and the northern part, he said, where it was narrowest; so that it might be three miles wide to the moor, and then the moor (is) in some places, as wide as one might traverse in two weeks; and in some places (is) as wide as one might traverse in six days."
Source Ottars Voyage
As I understand Ottar the Norse agricultural settlement was restricted to a thin line along the coast around 890 AD and the main way of transportation must have been by boat, while a thin Saami hunter population lived in the moors uphill from the coastal settlements.
I know there can be quite windy sometimes at the southern and western coast but I do not think that have been a big problem for movement up people, culture and trade between eastern and western Norway and continental Europe.
Noaide
"He said that the Norwegians' (Norðmanna) land was very long and very narrow. -- Wild moors lie towards the east and up along towards the cultivated land. Sami people (Finnas) live on the moors. -- Then Sweden (Sweoland) is along the land to the south, on the other side of the moors, as far as the land to the north; and Kvenland (Cwena land) along the land to the north. The Kvens (Qwenas) harry the Norwegians across the moor, sometimes the Norwegians them. And there are very many fresh water lakes beyond the moors; and the Kvens carry their ships overland into the moors, whence they harry the Norwegians, they have very small and very light ships."
I think this suggest that the lakes and rivers through central Sweden and then over the Keel to Norway was also used. Furthermore, sagas also tell how Norwegian kings sometimes on their way from Novgorod to Nidaros left their ships in Helsingland and went through Jämtland to Norway.
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Originally posted by Paul_JohnsenYes, the ocean has been used for trade, and this is probably how language and culture was preserved/transmitted. But ocean-travel probably isn't responsible for large scale migrations. I think it would have had to be the people on the fringes (north) who would have been forced to go to central areas in order to trade (south).
Furthermore the crossing from Eastern Norway to Western Norway involves crossing a large section of open unprotected coastline with some of the worst condition the the Atlantic has to offer. It would have been far easier and shorter to follow the considerably calmer Baltic Ocean to Western Finland, if you wanted to find a new place to settle.
"He said that the Northmen's lands were very long and very narrow. All of it that one might graze or cultivate, that (portion) lies towards the sea; and it is however very rocky in some places; and wild moors lie towards the east and up along towards the cultivated land. Fins live on the moors. And the cultivated land is broadest eastwards, and always the further north the narrower. The eastern part of it might be sixty miles wide, or somewhat wider; and the middle part thirty (miles) or wider; and the northern part, he said, where it was narrowest; so that it might be three miles wide to the moor, and then the moor (is) in some places, as wide as one might traverse in two weeks; and in some places (is) as wide as one might traverse in six days."
Source Ottars Voyage
As I understand Ottar the Norse agricultural settlement was restricted to a thin line along the coast around 890 AD and the main way of transportation must have been by boat, while a thin Saami hunter population lived in the moors uphill from the coastal settlements.
I know there can be quite windy sometimes at the southern and western coast but I do not think that have been a big problem for movement up people, culture and trade between eastern and western Norway and continental Europe.
Noaide
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Originally posted by Paul_JohnsenI had a look at the Haplotypes from Dupuy. To me it looks as though the south and east has about 37% I1a, Central and Northern Norway has about 33% I1a, and Western Norway has about 28%.
Divided into Nortvedts I1a-UN: about 37% of the I1a in the east, about 33% in the south, about 31% in the west and about 23% in the Northern and Central Norway appear to me to be I1a UN.
According to YHRD, I1a-UN is the most common haplotype in Iceland and in Southern Norway (about 8%) but not in Western Norway (about 3%). If it's true that Western Norway contributed most of the settlers in Iceland, it looks like the haplotype distribution in Western Norway has changed since Iceland was settled (less I1a than elsewhere in Norway and less I1a-UN than in Iceland). This could only be because new non-I1a or low-I1a people settled in Western Norway or that the settlers in Iceland had more I1a-UN than Western Norway in average. My guess is that new non-I1a or low-I1a people settled in Western Norway, maybe by ships from the British Isles and Continental Europe.
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Originally posted by EkiEasy? Who said it would have to be easy? That it's possible was enough. I'm sure sailing to Iceland and Greenland wasn't easy either. Those were different times then. People didn't expect things to be easy. Believing it's possible was enough for them.
Going over the mountains would be more difficult than sailing along the coast. Bringing boats for a mountaincrossing from East to West in Norway would be about as useful as bringing skis for a crossing of the Sahara. If any large scale migration happened (and I don't belive it did of course), it MUST have come by sea. Only a foreigner unfamiliar with Norwegian geography could claim otherwise.
I had a look at the Haplotypes from Dupuy. To me it looks as though the south and east has about 37% I1a, Central and Northern Norway has about 33% I1a, and Western Norway has about 28%.
Divided into Nortvedts I1a-UN: about 37% of the I1a in the east, about 33% in the south, about 31% in the west and about 23% in the Northern and Central Norway appear to me to be I1a UN.
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Originally posted by Paul_JohnsenI can hardly imagine a more absurd discussion than this. You have obviously never been here. I have lived in Western Norway all my life and I can tell you there are no rivers that run from Eastern Norway to Western Norway. There are roads and it is possible to drive across the Highland plateau. I have done so myself. However there are no easy roads, and they certainly aren't "highways" but rather they are narrow windy roads up and down valleys that are closed for large portions of the year because of snow.
The Langfjella Mountain chain forms a significant obstacle preventing easy flow of people from east to west. Did some people cross the Langfjella Mountain chain in the past? Sure. Did it effect the genetic makeup of Western or Eastern Norway in any significant way? No. I don't even think Noaide would argue against that.
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Originally posted by EkiDo you think it's a coincidence they built the highways E6 and E136 along those waterways? I don't think so. I think it was because there was a passage between the mountains.
The Langfjella Mountain chain forms a significant obstacle preventing easy flow of people from east to west. Did some people cross the Langfjella Mountain chain in the past? Sure. Did it effect the genetic makeup of Western or Eastern Norway in any significant way? No. I don't even think Noaide would argue against that.
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Originally posted by EkiThere are valleys, rivers and lakes between the mountains.
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