Anthropology website

[Paul_Johnsen]

Especially if I claim it was the Iron Age Halstatt culture that brought R1b to Scandinavia:

"Hallstatt Nordic: This is the type associated with the Hallstatt Iron Age remains in central Europe, and which probably did not enter Scandinavia much before the middle of the first millennium B.C. It has since been largely replaced in central Europe, but has found a refuge in Sweden and in the eastern valleys of southern Norway. In England this type is largely of Anglo-Saxon and Danish inspiration."

Seems like the Halstatt people may have been Celtic:

http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/austria/halstatt.html

"The small town of Halstatt and its adjoining lake, Halstattersee, derive their names from Hal, the old Celtic word for salt. For at least 2,800 years salt has been mined in the area, making the Halstatt mines among the oldest in the world. From 1000 to 500 BC the town flourished as a major European trading center and this period of Celtic culture has become known as the Halstatt epoch of the early Iron Age. Following the Celts, the salt mines continued to be worked by the Romans and later the medieval Europeans; today the mines are a great underground museum of prehistoric technology"

It is funny that you should assume that R1b was brought to Norway by this so called "Halstatt-race", seeing as it seems to largely overlap with high frequency I1a-areas rather than high frequency R1b.

[Eki]

It is funny that you should assume that R1b was brought to Norway by this so called "Halstatt-race", seeing as it seems to largely overlap with high frequency I1a-areas rather than high frequency R1b.

I don't think Austria is high frequency I1a-area.

Phenotype is not directly linked to the Y-DNA but to the autosomal DNA. I think the people who brought the Halstatt type in their autosomal DNA to Scandinavia may also have had R1b as their primary Y-haplogroup. Like the website says, the Halstatt type may have found a refuge in Sweden and in the eastern valleys of southern Norway while people with different autosomal DNA may have replaced them in Central Europe.

[Paul_Johnsen]

I don't think Austria is high frequency I1a-area.

Phenotype is not directly linked to the Y-DNA but to the autosomal DNA. I think the people who brought the Halstatt type in their autosomal DNA to Scandinavia may also have had R1b as their primary Y-haplogroup. Like the website says, the Halstatt type may have found a refuge in Sweden and in the eastern valleys of southern Norway while people with different autosomal DNA may have replaced them in Central Europe.

I was thinking of the Scandinavian regions, however I think Austria has far more I1a than R1b1c9. The eastern vallys of Southern Norway and Sweden has less R1b than Western Norway. It's is strange that they would send their ydna west, and have their other dna stay behind.

[Eki]

"The small town of Halstatt and its adjoining lake, Halstattersee, derive their names from Hal, the old Celtic word for salt. For at least 2,800 years salt has been mined in the area, making the Halstatt mines among the oldest in the world. From 1000 to 500 BC the town flourished as a major European trading center and this period of Celtic culture has become known as the Halstatt epoch of the early Iron Age.

I also think the Celtic areas weren't/aren't high frequency I1a-areas.

[Paul_Johnsen]

I also think the Celtic areas weren't/aren't high frequency I1a-areas.

I think maybe you missed my point. I wasn't saying I1a was introduced to Scandinavia recently (I'll leave making stupid remaks about significant ydna haplogroups being recently introduced to Scandinavia to the forums experts at making such remarks).

In Scandinavia R1b and this so called "Halstatt-race" doesn't overlap, therefore your theory must be wrong. Furthermore I would suggest that the whole website is, as Noaide put it: "crap". This is probably the first and only time I will agree with our Saami friend.

[Eki]

In Scandinavia R1b and this so called "Halstatt-race" doesn't overlap, therefore your theory must be wrong. Furthermore I would suggest that the whole website is, as Noaide put it: "crap". This is probably the first and only time I will agree with our Saami friend.

So you're saying that R1b doesn't exist in Sweden and the eastern valleys in southern Norway? You are entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to see proof on that.

Since the Hallstad phenotype is carried by autosomal DNA (inherited from both mother and father and all their ancestors. The Y-DNA and mtDNA don't overlap either, but I doubt they migrated totally independent from each other) and not the Y-DNA, it's possible that R1b may have been carried to other parts of Scandinavia without the Hallstatt phenotype being carried with it to a great extent, and vice versa.

[Eki]

Since the Hallstad phenotype is carried by autosomal DNA (inherited from both mother and father and all their ancestors. The Y-DNA and mtDNA don't overlap either, but I doubt they migrated totally independent from each other) and not the Y-DNA, it's possible that R1b may have been carried to other parts of Scandinavia without the Hallstatt phenotype being carried with it to a great extent, and vice versa.

Since I have a university degree in control engineering instead of genetics or anthropology, I may not be able to express my point very clearly, but in terms of control engineering it's analogous to decoupling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling

"In physics, decoupling is the general phenomenon in which the interactions between some physical objects (such as elementary particles) disappear."

[Noaide]

I think maybe you missed my point. I wasn't saying I1a was introduced to Scandinavia recently (I'll leave making stupid remaks about significant ydna haplogroups being recently introduced to Scandinavia to the forums experts at making such remarks).

In Scandinavia R1b and this so called "Halstatt-race" doesn't overlap, therefore your theory must be wrong. Furthermore I would suggest that the whole website is, as Noaide put it: "crap". This is probably the first and only time I will agree with our Saami friend.

Why this hostility? I am simply suggesting this as a possible explanation because of what we discussed earlier about the lack of R1b among I1a rich population in Finland and among the Saami. It is not ment as a personal insult against anyone and there is no "politics" in it from my side.

Noaide

[Paul_Johnsen]

So you're saying that R1b doesn't exist in Sweden and the eastern valleys in southern Norway? You are entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to see proof on that.

No, I am not. I am saying that there are much higher frequency in in the west rather than Sweden and the eastern vallys.

Since the Hallstad phenotype is carried by autosomal DNA (inherited from both mother and father and all their ancestors. The Y-DNA and mtDNA don't overlap either, but I doubt they migrated totally independent from each other) and not the Y-DNA, it's possible that R1b may have been carried to other parts of Scandinavia without the Hallstatt phenotype being carried with it to a great extent, and vice versa.

It wouldn't explain why it suddenly turns up in higher frequency in the west rather in the east

Since I have a university degree in control engineering instead of genetics or anthropology, I may not be able to express my point very clearly, but in terms of control engineering it's analogous to decoupling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling

"In physics, decoupling is the general phenomenon in which the interactions between some physical objects (such as elementary particles) disappear."

In your theory's case that is the case from the start. The only link is that the website says the the Halstatt race entered Scandinavia late, and that you claim that R1b entered Scandinavia late.

Furthermore as I said there is little R1b1c9 in Central Europe. I note that your site describes the so called "tronder race" as being common "among the Frisians, and common in the British Isles". I don't take your website content very seriously, however I do note that Friesland is probably the only likely candidate form where a late introduction of R1b1c9 into Norway could have originated. Do you suppose that the so called "Trønder race" is a newcommer?

[Paul_Johnsen]

Why this hostility? I am simply suggesting this as a possible explanation because of what we discussed earlier about the lack of R1b among I1a rich population in Finland and among the Saami. It is not ment as a personal insult against anyone and there is no "politics" in it from my side.

Noaide

I am not hostile, merely pointing out that we don't agree on much.

[Eki]

In your theory's case that is the case from the start. The only link is that the website says the the Halstatt race entered Scandinavia late, and that you claim that R1b entered Scandinavia late.

Another link is that the Halstatt culture was Celtic and Celtics are predominantly R1b.

Furthermore as I said there is little R1b1c9 in Central Europe. I note that your site describes the so called "tronder race" as being common "among the Frisians, and common in the British Isles". I don't take your website content very seriously, however I do note that Friesland is probably the only likely candidate form where a late introduction of R1b1c9 into Norway could have originated. Do you suppose that the so called "Trønder race" is a newcommer?

This other site says:

http://www.snpa.nordish.net/rg-tronder.htm

"The Trønder type proper is essentially restricted to the Scandinavian peninsula. The zone of maximal concentration stretches from eastern central Sweden, through the provinces of Trøndelag, and southwestward from there on until it approaches the southern Norwegian coastal areas. "

And

" Most of the Norwegian Vikings who settled in Iceland, Scotland, and northeastern England, were from the western part of the country, where Trønder types predominate. Accordingly, Trønder-like types are frequently seen in areas of erstwhile Norse settlement.

(*) In the Baltics, bordering on the Scandinavian peninsula, Trønder-like types are not uncommon. A combination of Corded and local Cro-Magnid elements, nowadays represented by the largely unreduced West-Baltids (an eastern Dalo-Falid or Brünn cognate), has resulted in a Baltic Trønder approximation. This could be the type referred to as "Aistin" or "Aisto-Nordid" by Lundman, and "Fenno-Nordid" by others."

I just received my DNA Tribes autosomal results. Iceland, Norway and Scotland were right after Finland with almost as high scores:

Finland 9.5
Iceland 8.8
Norway 7.8
Strathclyde, Scotland 6.6

Common to all those countries regarding to Y-DNA is that they all have a high percentage of I1a and only three of them have high percentage of R1b (Iceland, Norway and Scotland).

[Paul_Johnsen]

Another link is that the Halstatt culture was Celtic and Celtics are predominantly R1b.

But not R1b1c9.

[Eki]

But not R1b1c9.

I don't know much about R1b1c9, but I just saw this post by F.E.C. on another forum:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=195&st=40

"Does he match 300 people at 12 markers? Then he should be an Atlantic modal...but how can an Atlantic modal haplotype be a Frisian haplotype too??
However that 492=13 looks promising: maybe your father is R1b1c9 like me. This subclade is determined by a SNP discovered by Ethnoancestry and named S21. As for its origin and geographical distribution, they say it probably originated in northern Europe, in a belt stretching from Holland to southern Scandinavia. I don't know if it will be proven true in the end, maybe yes."

Are there any indications of R1b1c9 being in central and northern Scandinavia before 500 AD? Couldn't it be that R1b1c9 was born among the Halstatt people in northern Continental Europe and spread later to Denmark and southern Sweden? Maybe other phenotypes mixed with the Halstatt phenotype in Continental Europe and masked it, but in Sweden it was preserved relatively unaltered?

[Eki]

RootsWeb has a discussion on SNP S21, which if I've understood correctly, defines the R1bc9.

One says it might have arrived in England with a "second Wave Neolithic arrival" after the "first wave" that brought the 3400 year old S222 (c. 1500 BC):

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-10/1161830352

Another one think it's a Danish or Anglo-Saxon subclade, although mentions Norwegian Vikings, I however believe it might have been the Danish Vikings who took it to Southern Norway, since it's not found in Ireland that was a domain of Norwegian Vikings:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-10/1161879641

"Based on the data we have including a lot of academic - published samples we have tested, I need to re-iterate that there is scant evidence that S21 was in the British Isles prior to the Anglo - Saxon invasions. The percentages of S21+ found for example in a Norfolk village (50%) is precisely what one might expect if there was a mixed aboriginal Celt (presumably in the R1b arena R1b1c*), Anglo - Saxon, and Danish Viking contribution. Don't forget that in the Anglo - Saxon surrogate communities in Friesland (their language being the closest to old English and this is a region documented to have contributed to the migrations of the 5th Century) are about 75% S21+. All this appears to add up to S21 being an Continental invasion marker. Although only seen to date in one Irish sample (which is very telling), when observed it is almost guaranteed to signal an Anglo - Saxon descendant or Norse Viking (S21 being about two thirds of R1b in Norway). There may however be some Belgae S21 pockets in Ireland yet to be discovered."

[Noaide]

There is also some time estimates in J McWans pages.

"R1bSTR22 aka Frisian or Germanic

This cluster is exclusively associated with the S21+ SNP, although the SNP mutation itself is much older. It is thought to have originated in North Eastern Germany, although its centre of origin is disputed. Its estimated age of 5175 (SEM=813) yrs bp coincides best with the cultural changes that occurred around the time of the Kurgan expansion reached northern Europe."

Noaide