e3b1 m78+ Alpha

[Jim Denning]

I'm seeing the same things. I'm the "stiffest" Anglo Protestant that you'll ever find, yet my genetic neighbours are Jewish, Eastern Orthodox and Spanish Catholic--and probably you, robe3b!

When I sent my sample over to the Genographic Project, I thought (and this was a long shot) that they may reveal some Norwegian, Welsh, Scott, or maybe Irish in my deep background. Suprise!

After reading this thread, I think it would be good for all of us E3b1's to gather together for a field trip to Bulgaria. Any takers? I know some agents who could let one go free if 8 sign up.

several years ago i went to a scotish fair in canton mass. i was talking to this gent and i mentioned roman catholics there. he boldly told me I have never had a catholic in my family. I didnt want to get him more angry but what about before the reformation? being protestant doesnt goes as far back
surnames. lol and no one was christian prior to BC. People lose perspective

i just walked away smiling lol

[Jim Denning]

I'm seeing the same things. I'm the "stiffest" Anglo Protestant that you'll ever find, yet my genetic neighbours are Jewish, Eastern Orthodox and Spanish Catholic--and probably you, robe3b!

When I sent my sample over to the Genographic Project, I thought (and this was a long shot) that they may reveal some Norwegian, Welsh, Scott, or maybe Irish in my deep background. Suprise!

After reading this thread, I think it would be good for all of us E3b1's to gather together for a field trip to Bulgaria. Any takers? I know some agents who could let one go free if 8 sign up.

I would rather goto sudan and try and save my e3b1 brothers there from genoside

[Andrew M]

I would rather goto sudan and try and save my e3b1 brothers there from genoside

Good point. I was actually exploring the Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma aspect of E3b1 with the Bulgaria reference. I'm new to this, but apparently there have been findings of different migratory events that have lead to European, Near East and African branches of E3b1.

Helping those in The Sudan is a priority regardless of their numbers. After a bit of research into it, I found an NGO out there that's doing much more effective work than I could ever do as one person. I don't think the forum is quite to place to put in a plug for it, but just want to pass on the word that there are ways to work for the side of good in this dire situation.

[Richard Coyle]

E3b1a part of P.I.E. peoples.

Thanks Leo. We all have bits to contribute to create a fuller picture. Hopefully others can fill in the holes in my knowledge and vice versa. I just found the E3b forums a few months ago as well. I actually stumbled upon it when I was searching for something else on the main forums. We've linked it on the E3b Project page so all members can now easily find it.

I was reading over the Gray and Atkinson study and found it to confirm a bit more of my idea that, assuming the Anatolian theory is correct, the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture that moved into Central Europe, or it's later variant Stichbandkeramik (STK), could be the progenitors of proto-Germanic. The divergence dates seem to correspond with their expansion, plus or minus a bit. Considering also the relatively high level of mitochondrial N1a (at about 25%) found in LBK members which correlates with that in upper caste Indians, Indo-Europen origins make sense and add to the evidence in favor of the Anatolian Theory.


Slainte,
Jeff

The link you mention with E3b1a's and Indo-European peoples is interesting. My theory is E3b's migrated up through Greece during the close of Paleolithic and linked up with I1b's and perhaps others to form the Proto Indo-European people in the Balkin area just north of Greece. I'm not so sure of the Antatolian Theory because that area was homeland to the ancient Hatti who were a Hamitic/Caucasian people. I'd suspect some E3b's among the original Hatti but not linked with the Indo-European culture until much later.

[slumbuzzle]

The link you mention with E3b1a's and Indo-European peoples is interesting. My theory is E3b's migrated up through Greece during the close of Paleolithic and linked up with I1b's and perhaps others to form the Proto Indo-European people in the Balkin area just north of Greece. I'm not so sure of the Antatolian Theory because that area was homeland to the ancient Hatti who were a Hamitic/Caucasian people. I'd suspect some E3b's among the original Hatti but not linked with the Indo-European culture until much later.

Richard,

While the jury is still out for me on the possible agriculturalist origin of PIE, a lot of work, such as the Gray and Atkinson studies, has been shown to lean more in that direction. It makes more sense in my mind than the Kurgan hypothesis (Curse you Maria Gimbutas! ).

I think calling it the Anatolian Theory is a bit of a misnomer personally, but that’s the name I’ve seen used most, so I went with it. I can’t speak on the spread of Hattic into the region, but from what I’ve found on the Hatti doesn’t seem to contradict the idea that Pre-PIE originated in Anatolia with Neolithic Agriculturalists. If the Hatti inhabited Anatolia between the 3rd and 2nd millennium bc, it could mean that they moved in after the Pre-PIE culture had spread into the Balkans 3-4 millennia earlier. I agree that the Hatti must have had a measure of E3b, but this was likely left over from the earlier diffusion.

I’ve heard of the idea that E3b was in the Balkans during the Paleolithic, but I’ve never seen any evidence that substantiates the claim. I’m open to the possibility, so if you have anything please post some links. As far as I know the consensus is that E3b, especially stemming from the Balkans, is of Neolithic origin (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.3–9.2 ky for alpha) and migrated along the same routes that I1b did earlier.

Slainte,
Jeff

[RealDealT]

E3b study datasets

Hello all,
One year ago I did a study of a sub-cluster of Iberian E3b. With recent list discussion about E3b, some of you may be interested in the haplotype datasets I used for that study as I separated them into arbitrary geographic areas. It is not just Iberian E3b. I have made the datasets available by uploading them to Google’s Docs & Spreadsheets as an Excel file. You can easily create a Google Account if you do not already have one. There are individual worksheets for the 12, 25, and 37 marker datasets. You can access the dataset file at this link:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p07u_pWZNJhWA4G5os3qpcw

If you are interested in my original study you can view it in PDF format here: http://members.tripod.com/~GaryFelix/E3bsubcluster.pdf . Now that more E3b people are getting SNP tested, that Iberian E3b sub-cluster is proving out to be E3b2 (aka E3b1b) M81+ as was suspected. You can view evidence for this in the diagrams made by Victor Villarreal at http://haplogen.orgfree.com/latest37.php

Thanks for your time and interest.

[Richard Coyle]

Richard,

While the jury is still out for me on the possible agriculturalist origin of PIE, a lot of work, such as the Gray and Atkinson studies, has been shown to lean more in that direction. It makes more sense in my mind than the Kurgan hypothesis (Curse you Maria Gimbutas! ).

I think calling it the Anatolian Theory is a bit of a misnomer personally, but that’s the name I’ve seen used most, so I went with it. I can’t speak on the spread of Hattic into the region, but from what I’ve found on the Hatti doesn’t seem to contradict the idea that Pre-PIE originated in Anatolia with Neolithic Agriculturalists. If the Hatti inhabited Anatolia between the 3rd and 2nd millennium bc, it could mean that they moved in after the Pre-PIE culture had spread into the Balkans 3-4 millennia earlier. I agree that the Hatti must have had a measure of E3b, but this was likely left over from the earlier diffusion.

I’ve heard of the idea that E3b was in the Balkans during the Paleolithic, but I’ve never seen any evidence that substantiates the claim. I’m open to the possibility, so if you have anything please post some links. As far as I know the consensus is that E3b, especially stemming from the Balkans, is of Neolithic origin (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.3–9.2 ky for alpha) and migrated along the same routes that I1b did earlier.

Slainte,
Jeff

Jeff,

The National Geographic Society has added a lot of new information to their site since a few months ago. I get the impression they are hinting at an M35 cross over in the Near East with other groups. Since M170 was present in the the area about the time of M35 there is a possibility that some of these M35"s may have traveled with them to later become the E3b1alphas in the Balkins.

Another idea is some M35's became E3balphas's in Greece and then migrated to the Balkins.

The updated National Geographic site also shows mtDNA N1 migrating to Greece. I've heard that this mtDNA type traveled with M35's.

An added note DNA results form Linearbandkermik sites showed mtDNA N1a present. This report said this mtDNA is rare in Europe today. This story was from a report at http://www.theallineed.com/paleontology/06012021.htm

Best Wishes,
Richard

[KerryODair]

Enthoancestry

Enthoancestry Dr. David Faux

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This is a comment made on the 11/29/2006 by Dr. David Faux on subclade testing for e3b haplogroup.

Quote: 5) Cruciani's new E3b markers will go on sale any day.

This means they will be testing downstream of m78+ based on Cruciani's 2006 paper. Looks like they will beat familytreedna in this arena.

[robe3b]

I was wondering the same thing myself. As they are listed as the contact for the paper, I'll be contacting Rosaria Scozzari to ask about the markers tested and the acceptable values for inclussion into the alpha cluster.

As soon as I get their response, I'll post it verbatim here and on the E3b forum. I'll also post the updated information to the E3b Project page.

Slainte,
Jeff

Any news about Professoressa Scorazzi and the set of markers Dr. Cruciani's team employed to classify haplogroup E3b-M78 in different clusters?

[robe3b]

Alpha cluster and the E3b Project

A recent exchange of views in the E3b Family Forum, concerning Dr. Cruciani’s criteria for classifying M78 haplotypes into four distinctive clusters, has suggested me to carry out a very modest research on this subject, taking advantage of the available data on the E3b Project members. I must point out that I was mainly interested in the relative importance of cluster alpha with respect to haplogroup M78 as a whole.
It must be brought to mind that Dr. Cruciani’s paper “Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa” establishes some criteria in order to classify clusters alpha, beta and gamma. Thus the nine-repeat allele at DYS 460, often associated with the 24/23 pattern and its one-step neighbours at DYS 413, seems to be the principal features defining cluster alpha. For cluster beta the defining criteria would be 10 repeats at DYS 439 and the 23/21 pattern at DYS 413.
Well, from a total of forty-seven M78 members (SNP tested+suggested) which have results for DYS 460, thirty have nine repeats at DYS 460. Then, assuming that this criterion is enough to include a haplotype in alpha cluster, our alpha cousins would represent 63.8 % of all M78 samples (less than two-thirds).
I have also checked DYS 413 for those thirty members with DYS 460=9. Only nine have results for that marker. One of the samples shows results that don’t fit the criteria (a 22/21 pattern); the other eight samples fulfil them (seven 24/23 and one 23/23).
As for cluster beta, only one M78 sample has ten repeats at DYS 439, and might be a good candidate for this cluster.
Those of us having 11 or 12 repeats at DYS 460, and a value different from nine at DYS 439, would be delta cluster.

GOOOOO DELTA CLUSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jim Denning]

A recent exchange of views in the E3b Family Forum, concerning Dr. Cruciani’s criteria for classifying M78 haplotypes into four distinctive clusters, has suggested me to carry out a very modest research on this subject, taking advantage of the available data on the E3b Project members. I must point out that I was mainly interested in the relative importance of cluster alpha with respect to haplogroup M78 as a whole.
It must be brought to mind that Dr. Cruciani’s paper “Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa” establishes some criteria in order to classify clusters alpha, beta and gamma. Thus the nine-repeat allele at DYS 460, often associated with the 24/23 pattern and its one-step neighbours at DYS 413, seems to be the principal features defining cluster alpha. For cluster beta the defining criteria would be 10 repeats at DYS 439 and the 23/21 pattern at DYS 413.
Well, from a total of forty-seven M78 members (SNP tested+suggested) which have results for DYS 460, thirty have nine repeats at DYS 460. Then, assuming that this criterion is enough to include a haplotype in alpha cluster, our alpha cousins would represent 63.8 % of all M78 samples (less than two-thirds).
I have also checked DYS 413 for those thirty members with DYS 460=9. Only nine have results for that marker. One of the samples shows results that don’t fit the criteria (a 22/21 pattern); the other eight samples fulfil them (seven 24/23 and one 23/23).
As for cluster beta, only one M78 sample has ten repeats at DYS 439, and might be a good candidate for this cluster.
Those of us having 11 or 12 repeats at DYS 460, and a value different from nine at DYS 439, would be delta cluster.

GOOOOO DELTA CLUSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I might be wrong but isnt the sample just too small for real facts . we might justbe way ahead of ourselves

also whats to keep these allees changing down in stead of up

[robe3b]

I might be wrong but isnt the sample just too small for real facts . we might justbe way ahead of ourselves

also whats to keep these allees changing down in stead of up

Jim,
I think that your scepticism is understandable. The number of samples is far too small, and mutations are expected to occur in the mentioned DYS (460, 439 and 413). In spite of these facts, I’d like to point out that my post was a very basic and modest attempt to put into practice Cruciani’s criteria regarding haplogroup M78 clusters.
Nonetheless, the paper “Molecular Dissection of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup E-M78 (E3b1a): A Posteriori Evaluation of a Microsatellite-Network-Based Approach Through Six New Biallelic Markers” by Fulvio Cruciani, Roberta La Fratta, Antonio Torroni, Peter A. Underhill, and Rosaria Scozzari, allow us to conclude that there is a strong congruence between microsatellite-based clusters of haplotypes and haplogroups defined by slow-evolving UEPs in the case of clusters alpha and beta. All 98 samples classified in alpha cluster turned out to be haplogroup E-V13; similarly, all 29 chromosomes belonging to beta cluster happened to be haplogroup E-M78*. In that extent, we might assume that the “key” DYS that Cruciani cites in his paper from 2004 (460 and 413, for cluster alpha; 439 and 413, for cluster beta), are really crucial for the purpose of classifying M78 haplotypes in one of these clusters.
Of course, we can’t ignore the fact that DYS 439 is indeed a very fast mutating marker with a mutation rate of 0.0045. DYS 460 has a mutation rate of 0.0028, thus it isn’t a slow mutating one (all mutation rates from Doug McDonald). So, how can these markers be the right criteria? I’m afraid that I can’t answer this question.
Roberto