e3b1 m78+ Alpha

[KerryODair]

Here are some facts from the ysearch database on allele dys460 and dys413a dys413b on all e3b1’s and e3b1a’s. These numbers are in regards to e3b1 alpha having a dys460=9 and dys413a=23 and dys413b=24 markers based on some studies.

37 markers dys460 Allele 9 Allele 10 Allelel1 Allele12

59 44 8 6 1
Percentage 74% 13% 10% 1%

dys460 Allele 9 dys413a Allele 23 24 dys413b Allele 24

67 markers 7 7 6 1 7

E3b Project Data 67 markers

Dys460 dys413a dys413b Total Percentage
9 21 22 1 3%
9 22 22 1 3%
9 23 23 3 11%
9 23 24 9 33%
10 20 22 3 11%
10 21 23 1 3%
10 21 24 1 3%
10 22 22 1 3%
11 21 22 1 3%
11 21 23 1 3%
11 21 24 1 3%
11 22 23 2 7%
12 21 22 2 7%
Total 27

Dys460 (9) 50%
Dys460 (10) 20%
Dys460 (11) 16%
Dys460 (12) 7%

Numbers from the e3b project and ysearch don’t seem to support high number of e3b1 alpha that are suggested in some of the reports. I realize that this is a small sample, but still the numbers are not near the 80% or 90% that I have read in the articles for e3b1 apha. It would be interesting to see geographically where these 4 groups of dys460’s are located. It is too difficult to do without the raw data from the e3b project.

[Stevo]

Kerry,

Is that the branch of E3b that apparently developed in the Balkans?

[Bill Harvey]

Y-Search haplogroup category self-selected

Kerry,

The haplogroup and subclade selection is/can be self selected by the testee uploading his results. Thus there is an unknown degree of error introduced into the Y-Search database.

Another reason for different % showing up is the difference in origin of the sample population in each respective database. Here again Y-Search uploaders are allowed to indicate their known? origin - which in my opinion is way too loose to be of much use in the kind of study you are doing.

I am not M78+ so have not followed the theories and speculations very closely - however I think the proof all M78+ folks need to be looking forward to will only be revealed when SNP testing further into the M78 sub-clades is provided by the genetic test labs.

A gentle hint to FTDNA and EA now and then requesting additional SNP testing down to the new SNPs displayed on the ISoGG E-Haplogroup tree is probably the surest way of getting the SNP database sorted out to a point where we may be able to define a more reliable STR-based rule of thumb.

Of course this means more test $ for the E3b folks to come up with but thus far there has been a good deal of interest by members of the Project to delve further into the SNP innards of E3b as the testing has become available.

This is only my own personal opinion - would be interested to hear more on this topic from other E3b interested folks.

Bill Harvey

SNIPPED
[/QUOTE]Numbers from the E3b project and ysearch don’t seem to support high number of E3b1 alpha that are suggested in some of the reports. I realize that this is a small sample, but still the numbers are not near the 80% or 90% that I have read in the articles for E3b1 apha. It would be interesting to see geographically where these 4 groups of DYS460’s are located. It is too difficult to do without the raw data from the E3b project.[/QUOTE]

[KerryODair]

Kerry,

Is that the branch of E3b that apparently developed in the Balkans?

Yes, from most of the papers suggest a Balkans area. However, dys460 at 9 and 413a at 23 and 413b at 14 were supposed to be strong indications of Alpha m78+. This would be the e3b1a2 V13 in haplogroup tree.

[robe3b]

Here are some facts from the ysearch database on allele dys460 and dys413a dys413b on all e3b1’s and e3b1a’s. These numbers are in regards to e3b1 alpha having a dys460=9 and dys413a=23 and dys413b=24 markers based on some studies.

37 markers dys460 Allele 9 Allele 10 Allelel1 Allele12

59 44 8 6 1
Percentage 74% 13% 10% 1%

dys460 Allele 9 dys413a Allele 23 24 dys413b Allele 24

67 markers 7 7 6 1 7

E3b Project Data 67 markers

Dys460 dys413a dys413b Total Percentage
9 21 22 1 3%
9 22 22 1 3%
9 23 23 3 11%
9 23 24 9 33%
10 20 22 3 11%
10 21 23 1 3%
10 21 24 1 3%
10 22 22 1 3%
11 21 22 1 3%
11 21 23 1 3%
11 21 24 1 3%
11 22 23 2 7%
12 21 22 2 7%
Total 27

Dys460 (9) 50%
Dys460 (10) 20%
Dys460 (11) 16%
Dys460 (12) 7%

Numbers from the e3b project and ysearch don’t seem to support high number of e3b1 alpha that are suggested in some of the reports. I realize that this is a small sample, but still the numbers are not near the 80% or 90% that I have read in the articles for e3b1 apha. It would be interesting to see geographically where these 4 groups of dys460’s are located. It is too difficult to do without the raw data from the e3b project.

Kerry,

Your post have interested me a lot, because for a long time I have been reflecting if it really was possible to infer haplogroup membership through haplotypes. I honestly thought that it was a dubious method, as I had been predicted M35* upon the basis of my genetic signature. Later, the SNP test revealed that I was M78, instead.
Nonetheless, the recent paper on haplogroup E3b-M78 ("Molecular Dissection of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup E-M78 (E3b1a): A Posteriori Evaluation of a Microsatellite-Network-Based Approach Through Six New Biallelic Markers"), by Cruciani et al. seems to prove the opposite, as far as clusters alpha and beta are concerned. Thus, Table 2 of the paper, Relationships between microsatellite-based clusters (columns) and binary haplogroup/paragroup affiliations (rows) within haplogroup E-M78, shows that all 98 samples classified within cluster alpha corresponded to haplogroup E-V13. In a similar way, as far as beta cluster is concerned, grouping based on haplotypes has proven right. Also in Table 2 we read that all 29 men included in this cluster actually belong to paragroup E-M78*.
So, if we knew the set of 11 markers used by Cruciani, we could ascertain our membership to either E-V13 or E-M78*, provided that our haplotype match Cruciani’s set. (By the way, none of the confirmed M78 members of the E3b Project has nine repeats at locus 391, then is unlikely that any of them happen to be E-M78*).
Still, Table 2 also shows that no exact correspondence exists between alpha cluster and haplogroup E-V13, and that some haplotypes previously classified as belonging to delta cluster (3 samples) or not classified at all (2 samples) were actually members of haplogroup E-V13.

Roberto

[KerryODair]

Kerry,

Your post have interested me a lot, because for a long time I have been reflecting if it really was possible to infer haplogroup membership through haplotypes. I honestly thought that it was a dubious method, as I had been predicted M35* upon the basis of my genetic signature. Later, the SNP test revealed that I was M78, instead.
Nonetheless, the recent paper on haplogroup E3b-M78 ("Molecular Dissection of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup E-M78 (E3b1a): A Posteriori Evaluation of a Microsatellite-Network-Based Approach Through Six New Biallelic Markers"), by Cruciani et al. seems to prove the opposite, as far as clusters alpha and beta are concerned. Thus, Table 2 of the paper, Relationships between microsatellite-based clusters (columns) and binary haplogroup/paragroup affiliations (rows) within haplogroup E-M78, shows that all 98 samples classified within cluster alpha corresponded to haplogroup E-V13. In a similar way, as far as beta cluster is concerned, grouping based on haplotypes has proven right. Also in Table 2 we read that all 29 men included in this cluster actually belong to paragroup E-M78*.
So, if we knew the set of 11 markers used by Cruciani, we could ascertain our membership to either E-V13 or E-M78*, provided that our haplotype match Cruciani’s set. (By the way, none of the confirmed M78 members of the E3b Project has nine repeats at locus 391, then is unlikely that any of them happen to be E-M78*).
Still, Table 2 also shows that no exact correspondence exists between alpha cluster and haplogroup E-V13, and that some haplotypes previously classified as belonging to delta cluster (3 samples) or not classified at all (2 samples) were actually members of haplogroup E-V13.

Roberto

What is really interesting is looking at the confirmed haplogroup for those 27 64 maker testors in the e3b group. I was not able to do that because the tables do not lend themselves to do that. I think there is something interesting to be learned from that exercise. Speaking of your approach, I took some european ydna study information and came up with this on my own markers.

My haplo for those markers (DYS 19, 389i, 389ii, 390, 391, 392, 393) is:
13 13 31 23 10 11 13 .

I have only six matches with my particular numbers from this list. I found that it supports other database information, I have seen in the past. Familytreedna has only two matches, one for Italy and one for Portugal at 12 markers. There is nothing even close at 25 markers. In ysearch I don’t even have any 12 marker matches for Europe and have only two matches with a genetic distance of 1 which is from Wales and Prussia, Germany. There are four possibilities with the information so far. An Iberian connection, a Roman connection, Phoenician or possibly a German connection. I see the German connection least likely based on exact matches. What does seem to be evident is this route from Spain to Austria to Italy or Austria to Italy to Spain. My matches definitely say Mediterranean in origin. Balkan connection seems only to be from Anatolia and no other matches in Turkey even close. Here is my guess based on this information.
Austria Celtic probably taken by Romans, through Italy to southern Italy. From there sent off to war in Spain and ending up in the British Isles. Another possibility is from Spain being from the Hannibal connection.

I am curious what you history experts might think of as a possibility that has not crossed my mind with limited knowledge of history.

Exact Matches.
pop dys19 dys389i dys389ii dys390 dys391 dys392 dys393
Andalusia, Southern Spain 13 13 31 23 10 11 13
Central Portugal 13 13 31 23 10 11 13
Lombardy, Northern Italy 13 13 31 23 10 11 13
Northern Portugal 13 13 31 23 10 11 13
Sicily, Southern Italy 13 13 31 23 10 11 13
Tyrol, Western Austria 13 13 31 23 10 11 13

These results are one marker off my markers

Liguria, Western Italy 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Liguria, Western Italy 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Puglia, Southern Italy 13 13 31 22 10 11 13
Puglia, Southern Italy 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Marche, Eastern Italy 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Umbria, Central Italy 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Latium, Central Italy 13 13 30 23 10 11 13

Barcelona, Catalonia 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Valencia, Eastern Spain 13 13 31 23 10 11 14
Valencia, Eastern Spain 13 13 31 23 11 11 13
Asturias 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Zaragoza, Aragon 13 13 31 23 10 11 12

Santiago de Compostela, Galicia 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Southern Portugal 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Southern Portugal 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Madeira, Portugal 13 13 30 23 10 11 13

Bern, Switzerland 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Lausanne, Western Switzerland 13 13 30 23 10 11 13

London, England 13 13 31 23 9 11 13
London, England 13 13 31 24 10 11 13

Anatolia, Turkey 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Anatolia, Turkey 13 13 31 22 10 11 13



Cologne, Westphalia 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Freiburg, Baden-Wьrttemberg 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Leipzig, Saxony 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Rostock, Mecklenburg 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Mainz, Rhineland-Palatinate 13 14 31 23 10 11 13

Moscow, Western Russia 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Netherlands 13 13 30 23 10 11 13
Romania 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Sweden 13 13 31 24 10 11 13
Zagreb, Croatia 13 13 31 24 10 11 13

[KerryODair]

New isog chart for E Haplogroup Dated 9-Oct-2006

E SRY4064 (SRY8299 or M40), M96, P29
• E* -
• • E1 M33, M132
• • • E1* -
• • • E1a M44
• • E2 M75
• • • E2* -
• • • E2a M41
• • • E2b M54, M90, M98
• • • • E2b* -
• • • • E2b1 P45
• • • • E2b2 M85 (formerly E2b)
• • • • • E2b2* -
• • • • • E2b2a M200
• • E3 P2, DYS391p
• • • E3* -
• • • E3a M2 (SY81) (DYS271), M180, P1, P46
• • • • E3a* -
• • • • E3a1 M58
• • • • E3a2 M116.2
• • • • E3a3 M149
• • • • E3a4 M154
• • • • E3a5 M155
• • • • E3a6 M10, M66, M156, M195
• • • • E3a7 M191
• • • E3b M215
• • • • E3b* -
• • • • E3b1 M35 (formerly in E3b)
• • • • • E3b1* -
• • • • • E3b1a M78 (formerly E3b1)
• • • • • • E3b1a* -
• • • • • • E3b1a1 V12
• • • • • • • E3b1a1* -
• • • • • • • E3b1a1a M224 (formerly E3b1b, then E3b1a2)
• • • • • • • E3b1a1b V32
• • • • • • E3b1a2 V13
• • • • • • • E3b1a2* -
• • • • • • • E3b1a2a V27 (added)
• • • • • • E3b1a3 V22
• • • • • • • E3b1a3* -
• • • • • • • E3b1a3a M148 (added) (formerly E3b1a, then E3b1a2)
• • • • • • • E3b1a3b V19 (added)
• • • • • E3b1b M81 (formerly E3b2)
• • • • • • E3b1b* -
• • • • • • E3b1b1 M107 (formerly E3b2a)
• • • • • • E3b1b2 M183, M165 (formerly E3b2b)
• • • • • E3b1c M123 (formerly E3b3)
• • • • • • E3b1c* -
• • • • • • E3b1c1 M34 (formerly E3b3a)
• • • • • • • E3b1c1* -
• • • • • • • E3b1c1a M136, M84 (formerly E3b3a1)
• • • • • • • E3b1c1b M290 (added) (formerly E3b3a2)
• • • • • E3b1d M281 (formerly E3c)
• • • • • E3b1e V6 (formerly E3e)
• • • E3c M329 (added)
• • E4 P75

[Jim Denning]

E SRY4064 (SRY8299 or M40), M96, P29
• E* -
• • E1 M33, M132
• • • E1* -
• • • E1a M44
• • E2 M75
• • • E2* -
• • • E2a M41
• • • E2b M54, M90, M98
• • • • E2b* -
• • • • E2b1 P45
• • • • E2b2 M85 (formerly E2b)
• • • • • E2b2* -
• • • • • E2b2a M200
• • E3 P2, DYS391p
• • • E3* -
• • • E3a M2 (SY81) (DYS271), M180, P1, P46
• • • • E3a* -
• • • • E3a1 M58
• • • • E3a2 M116.2
• • • • E3a3 M149
• • • • E3a4 M154
• • • • E3a5 M155
• • • • E3a6 M10, M66, M156, M195
• • • • E3a7 M191
• • • E3b M215
• • • • E3b* -
• • • • E3b1 M35 (formerly in E3b)
• • • • • E3b1* -
• • • • • E3b1a M78 (formerly E3b1)
• • • • • • E3b1a* -
• • • • • • E3b1a1 V12
• • • • • • • E3b1a1* -
• • • • • • • E3b1a1a M224 (formerly E3b1b, then E3b1a2)
• • • • • • • E3b1a1b V32
• • • • • • E3b1a2 V13
• • • • • • • E3b1a2* -
• • • • • • • E3b1a2a V27 (added)
• • • • • • E3b1a3 V22
• • • • • • • E3b1a3* -
• • • • • • • E3b1a3a M148 (added) (formerly E3b1a, then E3b1a2)
• • • • • • • E3b1a3b V19 (added)
• • • • • E3b1b M81 (formerly E3b2)
• • • • • • E3b1b* -
• • • • • • E3b1b1 M107 (formerly E3b2a)
• • • • • • E3b1b2 M183, M165 (formerly E3b2b)
• • • • • E3b1c M123 (formerly E3b3)
• • • • • • E3b1c* -
• • • • • • E3b1c1 M34 (formerly E3b3a)
• • • • • • • E3b1c1* -
• • • • • • • E3b1c1a M136, M84 (formerly E3b3a1)
• • • • • • • E3b1c1b M290 (added) (formerly E3b3a2)
• • • • • E3b1d M281 (formerly E3c)
• • • • • E3b1e V6 (formerly E3e)
• • • E3c M329 (added)
• • E4 P75

why doesnt ftdna use these new catagories

[KerryODair]

That's a real good question Jim. I am wondering why they are draging their feet as well.

[robe3b]

What is really interesting is looking at the confirmed haplogroup for those 27 64 maker testors in the e3b group. I was not able to do that because the tables do not lend themselves to do that. I think there is something interesting to be learned from that exercise. Speaking of your approach, I took some european ydna study information and came up with this on my own markers.

My haplo for those markers (DYS 19, 389i, 389ii, 390, 391, 392, 393) is:
13 13 31 23 10 11 13 .

I have only six matches with my particular numbers from this list. I found that it supports other database information, I have seen in the past. Familytreedna has only two matches, one for Italy and one for Portugal at 12 markers. There is nothing even close at 25 markers. In ysearch I don’t even have any 12 marker matches for Europe and have only two matches with a genetic distance of 1 which is from Wales and Prussia, Germany. There are four possibilities with the information so far. An Iberian connection, a Roman connection, Phoenician or possibly a German connection. I see the German connection least likely based on exact matches. What does seem to be evident is this route from Spain to Austria to Italy or Austria to Italy to Spain. My matches definitely say Mediterranean in origin. Balkan connection seems only to be from Anatolia and no other matches in Turkey even close. Here is my guess based on this information.
Austria Celtic probably taken by Romans, through Italy to southern Italy. From there sent off to war in Spain and ending up in the British Isles. Another possibility is from Spain being from the Hannibal connection.

Kerry,

Hypothesizing about our forefathers’ possible migration routes may be entertaining, but, useful? Maybe.
Using your minimal haplotype, with DYS 388 393 392 19 390 391 (the set chosen by Capelli et al. in their paper Population Structure in the Mediterranean Basin: A Y Chromosome Perspective), I have checked your exact matches with the haplotypes included in Table A1; in fact, your 6 markers signature equals haplotype # 42, which values are as follows: DYS 388=12; DYS 393=13; DYS 392=11; DYS 19=13; DYS 390=23; DYS 391=10. Thus, you match 2 Muslim Lebanese, 1 Christian Lebanese, 3 Southern Italians and 3 Eastern Sicilians. Your ancestral journey? From Phoenicia to continental Italy and Sicily...perhaps a first step.

Roberto

[KerryODair]

Kerry,

Hypothesizing about our forefathers’ possible migration routes may be entertaining, but, useful? Maybe.
Using your minimal haplotype, with DYS 388 393 392 19 390 391 (the set chosen by Capelli et al. in their paper Population Structure in the Mediterranean Basin: A Y Chromosome Perspective), I have checked your exact matches with the haplotypes included in Table A1; in fact, your 6 markers signature equals haplotype # 42, which values are as follows: DYS 388=12; DYS 393=13; DYS 392=11; DYS 19=13; DYS 390=23; DYS 391=10. Thus, you match 2 Muslim Lebanese, 1 Christian Lebanese, 3 Southern Italians and 3 Eastern Sicilians. Your ancestral journey? From Phoenicia to continental Italy and Sicily...perhaps a first step.

Roberto

I have seen those results from the Capellie paper in the past. This new european data set that I used for this example seems to have a broader base than the Capelli. The two Lebanese markers I agree could be Phoenician. Still looking for more matches or snp's. My dys19 at 13, dys390 at 30, and dys393 at 13 are far more rare than most matches. I also have the double 16 at dys385a and dys385b. I won't need that test.

[Jim Denning]

That's a real good question Jim. I am wondering why they are draging their feet as well.

or are we jumping ahead of good science

[LeoLoS]

The Capelli study lacks clusters from Greece which seems to be an disadvantage, although it mention both Greek and Phoenician colonies in the text:

The complexity of Mediterranean genetic history is testified also by the number of historical events occurring in this area: the foundation of Greek colonies in the west Mediterranean (South Italy, Spain and coastal France; Burn, 1990), Phoenician and Carthaginian settlements ...

So matches from Sicily together with matches from Libanon don't neccessarily mean Phoenician ancestors, I for instance get 13 matches from Sicily and also 2 from Libanon (among with 1 from Malta, 5 from southern Italy and 3 from Cyprus)

[robe3b]

The Capelli study lacks clusters from Greece which seems to be an disadvantage, although it mention both Greek and Phoenician colonies in the text:

So matches from Sicily together with matches from Libanon don't neccessarily mean Phoenician ancestors, I for instance get 13 matches from Sicily and also 2 from Libanon (among with 1 from Malta, 5 from southern Italy and 3 from Cyprus)

You are right, LeoLoS. Personally, I wonder why Capelli has not included some Greek samples within the so-called Central-East Mediterranean cluster.
Anyhow, mon post n’a été qu’un divertissement de l’esprit, à ne pas prendre avec trop de sérieux.

[KerryODair]

or are we jumping ahead of good science

Surely anyone who is m78+ is really an e3b1a even based on ftdna subclade testing. So why don't they change me from e3b1 to at least e3b1a. They certainly have done this with r1b1 to r1b1c in the ftdna haplogroups. Someone is coming up with with new m78+ subclades. We should see some papers soon, one would hope.