Microvariant value at DYS 464b

[robe3b]

I have got my Y-DNA tested by two different labs, FTDNA’s and Sorenson’s, for the 37 and the 43 markers test, respectively. The Sorenson’s lab has reported a microvariant value of 15.3 for marker 464b.
My signature being somewhat rare, it is so that I have no exact matches for 12 markers, no 11/12 “near” matches, and only five 10/12, genetic “neighbours”.
In public databases I have found four people who are 11 steps off, as follows.

Ysearch: a 26/37 neighbour, who belongs to my haplogroup (E3b M78), from the British Isles.

Ybase: a 25/36 neighbour, unknown haplogroup, from the British Isles, too.

SMGF: a 25/36 neighbour, from Slovenia………. BUT, a 26/37 neighbour, from the British Isles, when I enter the value 15.3 for DYS 464b.

My questions:
Since my paternal line is Spanish, and I don’t have any matches or close matches from Spain or Latin America, how significant these similar genetic profiles from the British Isles are, regarding a possible common ancestor?
How significant is the fact of having the same values for DYS 464a,b,c,d (15, 15.3, 16, 17) that the 26/37 neighbour from the British Isles, in the Sorenson’s database?

[robe3b]

I have got my Y-DNA tested by two different labs, FTDNA’s and Sorenson’s, for the 37 and the 43 markers test, respectively. The Sorenson’s lab has reported a microvariant value of 15.3 for marker 464b.
My signature being somewhat rare, it is so that I have no exact matches for 12 markers, no 11/12 “near” matches, and only five 10/12, genetic “neighbours”.
In public databases I have found four people who are 11 steps off, as follows.

Ysearch: a 26/37 neighbour, who belongs to my haplogroup (E3b M78), from the British Isles.

Ybase: a 25/36 neighbour, unknown haplogroup, from the British Isles, too.

SMGF: a 25/36 neighbour, from Slovenia………. BUT, a 26/37 neighbour, from the British Isles, when I enter the value 15.3 for DYS 464b.

My questions:
Since my paternal line is Spanish, and I don’t have any matches or close matches from Spain or Latin America, how significant these similar genetic profiles from the British Isles are, regarding a possible common ancestor?
How significant is the fact of having the same values for DYS 464a,b,c,d (15, 15.3, 16, 17) that the 26/37 neighbour from the British Isles, in the Sorenson’s database?

I also wonder whether this microvariant value at DYS 464b could be a distinctive genetic trait of one of the clades of haplogroup E3b-M78.

[vineviz]

I also wonder whether this microvariant value at DYS 464b could be a distinctive genetic trait of one of the clades of haplogroup E3b-M78.

DYS464b is not a particular marker, it is merely the second highest allele of the four (or more) alleles at DYS464.

Also, DYS464 is highly variable (i.e. it mutates relatively quickly compared to other markers).

For these reasons, a particular value at DYS464b is very unlikely to be characteristic of a clade. It is possible that a clade could exhibit an overall pattern at DYS464 but this is very unlikely also. DYS464 is most often useful for seperating branches of a particular family, not for determining haplogroup or subclade.

[robe3b]

DYS464b is not a particular marker, it is merely the second highest allele of the four (or more) alleles at DYS464.

Also, DYS464 is highly variable (i.e. it mutates relatively quickly compared to other markers).

For these reasons, a particular value at DYS464b is very unlikely to be characteristic of a clade. It is possible that a clade could exhibit an overall pattern at DYS464 but this is very unlikely also. DYS464 is most often useful for seperating branches of a particular family, not for determining haplogroup or subclade.

Thanks for expressing your view, Vineviz, but some companies say that they do report microvariant values, and have found that about a third of the E3b samples they have tested, have the 15.3 microvariant value at DYS 464b.

[vineviz]

Thanks for expressing your view, Vineviz, but some companies say that they do report microvariant values, and have found that about a third of the E3b samples they have tested, have the 15.3 microvariant value at DYS 464b.

Some labs do report microvariants for DYS464. And although some labs report that many E3b samples have an allele of 15.3 among their DYS464 results there has been no peer-reviewed research to suggest that a 15.3 allele is diagnostic or predictive.

In any case, since the protocol for reporting DYS464 requires the alleles to be reported in ascending order, there can not (by definition) be anything diagnostic about DYS464b at the haplogroup or subclade level.

[robe3b]

Some labs do report microvariants for DYS464. And although some labs report that many E3b samples have an allele of 15.3 among their DYS464 results there has been no peer-reviewed research to suggest that a 15.3 allele is diagnostic or predictive.

In any case, since the protocol for reporting DYS464 requires the alleles to be reported in ascending order, there can not (by definition) be anything diagnostic about DYS464b at the haplogroup or subclade level.

Hi Vineviz,

Your views have aroused my curiosity. I have googled for further information about DYS 464, and I have found (among others) the following comments:

Forensic Value of the Multi-Copy Y-STR Marker DYS464

The Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) marker DYS464 was first reported by Redd et al. Forensic Sci. Int. (2002) 130:97-111 and appears to be the most polymorphic Y-STR marker discovered to date.
A single primer pair can generate up to four distinct peaks. A careful mapping of DYS464 primers into the human genome reveals at least four copies occur over a 1.8 megabase (Mb) stretch near the DAZ region around 25 Mb on the Y-chromosome. Allele calls can be made based on peaks that are present (conservative approach) or a combination of alleles and peak height ratios (expanded typing method). However, the multitude of possible two and three peak patterns can potentially make this marker difficult to reliably type if mixtures from multiple males are involved. Issues of peak height ratio consistency will be examined in the context of different DYS464 patterns and discussed in terms of deciphering mixtures and potential degraded DNA profile patterns. We have observed 113 different DYS464 peak patterns using the conservative approach and 179 with the expanded typing method in 679 males from three U.S. populations. By comparison, in the same data set only 56 unique DYS385 types were seen. Perhaps more importantly, the addition of DYS464 results to the 9-locus minimal haplotype resulted in the ability to resolve almost all of the samples in our data set possessing the most common type that occurs in the European Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database (www.ystr.org). Several primer pairs have been developed for DYS464 and included in new multiplex assays.

John M. Butler and Richard Schoske
U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg.

This one is interesting, too:

Marker DYS464 appears to be a rapidly changing Y chromosome marker and is a multi-copy marker. DYS464 occurs at least four times near the center of the Y-chromosome. The first four copies are called: DYS464a, DYS464b, DYS464c, DYS464d. Marker DYS464 is also known to occur more than four times, generally in African lineages of Haplogroup E. Additional copies of DYS464 are called: DYS464e, DYS464f, and so forth... DYS464 has an observed range between 9 to 20 inclusive.
When testing a random sample of 679 males for DYS464, scientists have found that the result 15,15,17,17 occurred in 10.6% of those tested, 15,15,16,17 occurred in 7.5% of the samples, and all the other results occurred less than 5% of the time, with over half these results only occurring once. This illustrates that Marker DYS464 is valuable in differentiating unrelated persons or splits in branches that have failed to show variation with other markers in the panel. In fact DYS 464 alone has a greater ability to split then the first 12 markers combined.
[from Family Tree DNA's Facts & Genes, volume 3, issue 2 (March 2004)]

What do you think about?

[robe3b]

Here’s some additional information concerning my values for DYS 464. According to the SMGF Y-chromosome database, ONLY 11 out of 12,967 individuals which were tested for DYS 464, have the haplotype 15-15.3-16-17. In other words, only 0,085% of the total number of testees.
Also, the most common haplotype was 15-15-17-17 (13,249 %), and just 10 haplotypes were greater than 1,0 %.

Roberto

[R2-D2]

On DNA-FP's pdf for marker prices it lists 464 as a palindromic marker that could reveal medical features. I just found a site that said the absence of 464 could indicate infertility in men.

[vineviz]

This illustrates that Marker DYS464 is valuable in differentiating unrelated persons or splits in branches that have failed to show variation with other markers in the panel. In fact DYS 464 alone has a greater ability to split then the first 12 markers combined.
[from Family Tree DNA's Facts & Genes, volume 3, issue 2 (March 2004)] [/I]

This seems right to me. It is the high mutation rate that makes DYS464 so useful for genealogical analysis but at the same time less useful for haplogroup or subclade detection.

My point earlier on the reported order was merely this: imagine that an E3b subclade founder had DYS464 = 15, 15.3, 16, 16 so DYS464b was 15.3

If the 15 mutates to 16, now DYS464a=15.3

If, instead, a 16 mutates to 15, then DYS464c=15.3.

Because the mutation rate on DYS464 is so high, DYS464b could be just about anything in modern populations that share the same subclade founder.