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  • rainbow
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    Rainbow, how do your ENSFI scores compare to your Tribes report?
    Thanks for posting your ENSFI. I needed to see how it was done. All I remember from last time I did mine (a year or two ago? ) was that someone told me to look at the 'Balding Size' column, and after doing all that my top match was Portugal, the same as my then DNATribes top match.
    My DNATribes change with every update. The top world region changes with every update. Last update I had with the 15 markers was 'Finno-Ugrian', current one with 21 markers is 'North African'.
    My last 15 marker update was the closest to my actual ancestry. My last 15 marker update had a bunch of matches from the UK. But the correct matches disappeared in my 21 marker upgrade/update. The ENSFI now matches me to Estonia, then Portugal, then Spain, then Denmark. The Estonia would fit my 15 marker DNATribes top world region of 'Finno-Ugrian'. I've been told I look Baltic, whatever that means, I've never been there. My DNAtribes has Portugal & Spain & Denmark in my top 20.
    Of the top 4 ENSFI matches, 3 of them are in my current DNATribes top 20 matches.
    My ENSFI top match is Estonia. My DNATribes top match is Syria.
    At this point I'd say ENSFI is looking better than my DNATribes.

    But both are far off.

    I don't understand what the E -10 and -11 means.
    Last edited by rainbow; 19 June 2008, 10:50 PM.

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  • RegRiv
    replied
    ENSFI Vs. Tribes

    Tomcat, thanks for explaining everything in layman's terms. I better understand this whole proceess, thanks to you.

    Rainbow, how do your ENSFI scores compare to your Tribes report?

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  • rainbow
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    I see the ENSFI results combined with my Tribes Native scores. And I cannot edit it due that 15 min. window passing. I'll post them separately then....

    ENSFI Balding Size Bias

    Estonia 1.3493E-12
    Slovenia 4.1154E-13
    Croatia 4.051E- 13
    Czech Republic 3.8421E-13
    Poland 3.7677E-13
    Sweden 3.5164E-13
    Netherlands 2.6905E-13
    Austria 2.6724E-13
    Norway 2.4935E-13
    Germany 2.4866E-13
    Finland 2.0851E-13
    Denmark 1.933E-13
    No. Ireland 1.9100E-13
    Scotland/Glasgow 1.6672E-13
    Belgium 1.6566E-13
    Scotland/Dundee 1.39899E-13
    England/Wales 1.3883E-13
    Full Database
    Ireland
    Italy
    France/Lille
    Switzerland
    Portugal
    France/Toulouse
    Spain
    Oh, I see how it's done.... the lowest -#, then the highest number. I have -10 and -11. So I need to first look at the -10, and then the highest #. And the last to look at is the -11.
    Scotland is supposed to have only one t, but ENSFI spells Scotland with two t's.

    My ENSFI Balding Size top matches with every box filled out:
    Estonia 4.8415E-10
    Portugal 4.4609E-10
    Spain 4.0887E-10
    Denmark 3.6189E-10
    Ireland 3.4773E-10
    North Ireland 3.1867E-10
    Scotland/Dundee 2.7805E-10
    Scotland/Glasgow 2.6754E-10
    Italy 2.5139E-10
    Finland 2.2098E-10
    Croatia 2.1486E-10
    France/Lille 1.8900E-10
    Austria 1.8744E-10
    Belgium 1.8612E-10
    Poland 1.8523E-10
    Switzerland 1.7921E-10
    Netherlands 1.6581E-10
    Full Database 1.6493E-10
    Sweden 1.5466E-10
    Czech Republic 1.4792E-10
    Slovenia 1.3969E-10
    England/Wales 1.3360E-10
    Norway 1.2222E-10
    Germany 6.9191E-11
    France/Toulouse 6.2448E-11
    Last edited by rainbow; 18 June 2008, 02:49 PM.

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    Are Allele I normally from one single parent? And Allele II are from the other parent? Is that how I would isolate things? Just do one side/parent...
    What is the general concensus of ENSFI and Omnipop? Do most people find them accurate?
    ...
    Although your alleles are arranged in columns, I and II, those columns do not represent the contribution of Parent I and Parent II. The contribution of either parent might be in either column. The columnar arrangement derives from a reporting convention that gives the smaller allele value before the larger value.

    There is no consensus on this type of analysis, people either like it or hate it depending on whether they find it affirming of known genealogy or not. But those who are of exclusively European ancestry do seem to find ENFSI preferrable, or less confusing, than Tribes and Omnipop.

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  • RegRiv
    replied
    Are Allele I normally from one single parent? And Allele II are from the other parent? Is that how I would isolate things? Just do one side/parent.

    Btw, my ENSFI scores look a lot different than my Native Tribes scores...with Polish pushed down the list. What is the general concensus of ENSFI and Omnipop? Do most people find them accurate?

    Sorry for all the questions.
    Gratefully,
    Regina
    Last edited by RegRiv; 17 June 2008, 03:08 PM.

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  • tomcat
    replied
    One can run partial profiles on both Omnipop and ENFSI and, on each, a partial profile can be as little as a single allele at a single locus. One might, in this way, synthesize, a half-profile (one allele at each locus) most characteristic of a half-ancestry (Polish, e.g.) and then run the unused alleles to see if one could synthesize profiles characteristic of quarter-ancestries (German, Scots-Irish). ENFSI is the better calculator for European ancestries. One will likely not find single alleles highly definitive for a single ancestry but if a single allele is more NE European and NW European (e.g.) it might be marked as more characteristic of one ancestry over another.

    It passes the time.
    Last edited by tomcat; 17 June 2008, 01:29 PM.

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  • RegRiv
    replied
    Omni vs. Tribes comparison

    Thanks again, Tomcat. I inserted my numbers into Omnipop...and scrolled way down to my hits. According to my 9 basic markers: I'm a Bahamian African with a dozen African hits on top. So, I added markers D2 & D19 - and came up with this list. The Polish & Caucasian is correct. But I'm not African, Hispanic, Venezualan, Native American, etc. in my Tribes report or in any known history. (My known ancestry is Polish with German & Scots-Irish.)

    Here's my Omnipop scores: 9 Basic Green markers & D2 & D19:

    Podlasie NE Poland (50) 5.86E+13
    ABI-D Caucasion (23) 1.12E+14
    Caucasion (64) 1.22E+14
    Serbian (157) 1.47E+14
    Byelorussian (163) 1.72E+14
    Belgian (99) 3.68E+14
    African American (64) 5.80E+14
    Hispanic (64) 1.17E+15
    ABI-ID Hispanic (23) 2.21E+15
    Venzezuelan (124) 3.08E+15
    Kosovo Albanian (155) 2.61E +16
    Minn.Native American (23) 3.32E+16

    Here's my Tribes top global matches:
    1 Lodz, Poland (.52) 234.99
    2 Estonia (.52) 213.64
    3 Brazil (.58) 186.33
    4 Caucasian (.46) 182.07
    5 Central Poland (.46) 176.10
    6 Norway (.45) 157.49
    7 Podlasie, NE Poland (.42) 154.08
    8 Budapest, Hungary(.47) 153.60
    9 Brazil (.51) 150.51
    10 Iceland (.53) 149.35
    11 European (Cape Town S.Africa)(.5)147.27
    12 Germany (.47) 143.79
    13 Czech Republic (.44) 143.78
    14 Caucasian (.41) 142.25
    15 Caucsian (S.Australia)(.5) 139.34
    16 Bavaria, Germany(.42) 137.17
    17 Caucasian (Alabama,USA)(.5)135.44
    18 Western Poland (.46) 131.65
    19 Flemish (.44) 130.17
    20 Caucasian (W.Australia)(.48) 118.79
    Last edited by RegRiv; 17 June 2008, 12:34 PM.

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    ...
    Regarding Omni-pop, I entered my data but I could not get a reading. I plugged in the 9 colored marker data & got African American results (I am Caucasian). When I tried adding any single or more of my other 12 markers - I got 0 results when I press "show frequencies".
    ...
    If you entered alleles for more than the 9 'green cell' loci you were matched to a fewer number of populations, those with data for those loci. If you scroll down the column of match results you will find, below the 00 results, actual match scores to those populations with data for those loci.

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  • RegRiv
    replied
    DNA Tribes Native Population

    DNA Tribes Native Population

    Poland 234.99
    Estonia 213.64
    Central Poland 176.10
    Norway 157.49
    Polasie, NE Poland 154.08
    Budapest, Hungary 153.60
    Iceland 149.35
    Germany 143.79
    Czech Repoublic 143.78
    Bavaria, Germany 137.17
    Western Poland 131.65
    Flemish 130.17
    Upper Silesia, Poland 117.29
    Slovenia 109.33
    South Poland 104.39
    Southeast Poland 104.29
    Pornorze Zachodnie, NW Poland 104.17
    Netherlands 102.80
    North & Central Poland 99.78
    Lodz, Poland 86.32

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  • RegRiv
    replied
    ENSFI Results

    I see the ENSFI results combined with my Tribes Native scores. And I cannot edit it due that 15 min. window passing. I'll post them separately then....

    ENSFI Balding Size Bias

    Estonia 1.3493E-12
    Slovenia 4.1154E-13
    Croatia 4.051E- 13
    Czech Republic 3.8421E-13
    Poland 3.7677E-13
    Sweden 3.5164E-13
    Netherlands 2.6905E-13
    Austria 2.6724E-13
    Norway 2.4935E-13
    Germany 2.4866E-13
    Finland 2.0851E-13
    Denmark 1.933E-13
    No. Ireland 1.9100E-13
    Scotland/Glasgow 1.6672E-13
    Belgium 1.6566E-13
    Scotland/Dundee 1.39899E-13
    England/Wales 1.3883E-13
    Full Database
    Ireland
    Italy
    France/Lille
    Switzerland
    Portugal
    France/Toulouse
    Spain

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  • RegRiv
    replied
    Hi Tomcat. Thanks for all of your help! And it was kind of you to explain the Amazonian issue. I "get it" now.

    Regarding Omni-pop, I entered my data but I could not get a reading. I plugged in the 9 colored marker data & got African American results (I am Caucasian). When I tried adding any single or more of my other 12 markers - I got 0 results when I press "show frequencies". (It says Theta on line 23 and .01 on line 24, below the markers. I'm wondering if that's supposed to be there.... I tried temporarily removing it, but it did not help.)

    I filled in the European model though. I have now sorted beginning with the lowest E # and highest # within that. I listed my top hits to lesser hits in order below. I don't know what to think of this. My Dad was mostly Polish, so it appears the Tribes is more accurate. Hmm. Any thoughts on this?

    ENFSI DNA Tribes Native

    Estonia Poland
    Slovenia Estonia
    Croatia Poland
    Czech Republic Norway
    Poland Poland
    Sweden Hungary
    Netherlands Iceland
    Austria Germany
    Norway Czech Republic
    Germany Bavaria
    Finland Poland
    Denmark Flemish
    No Ireland Poland
    Scotland/Glasgow Slovenia
    Belgium Poland
    Scotland/Dundee Poland
    England/Wales Poland
    Full DataBase Netherlands
    Ireland Poland
    Italy
    France/Lille
    Switzerland
    Portugal
    France/Toulouse
    Spain

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    I, too, ran over to that European STR website & input my markers & printed a report. But, I do not know how to interpret/read them to know in which order my results are. ...
    Omnipop automatically gives match scores in order, with the strongest at the top of the list. On Omnipop, the strongest matches have the SMALLEST E# and the SMALLEST decimalic number.

    On ENFSI, the match results are not ranked so you must sort them. The best matches are characterized by the SMALLEST E# and the LARGEST decimalic number.

    The E# is scientific notation to reduce very large numbers to a readable representation. E# equals exponent. If you have an E+4 you would add four decimal places or zeros to your decimalic number for your 'uncompressed' match score.
    Last edited by tomcat; 16 June 2008, 12:47 PM.

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
    ...
    You should edit your post to delete your autosomal marker values, which should not be made public (I don't know why).
    ...
    Or post them to the only online matching database for autosomal STR's, AMATCH, at DNA-Fingerprint:

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    ...I fear my Mom won't do the test when she learns she is not Native American (as her Dad told her), as my report shows no Indian at all. And now the Brazil surprise, which at age 73, will be hard for Mom to comprehend. Although her mother was adopted! ...
    Tribes is not an admixture test, it is a profile-matching test that simply indicates among which world populations you are most likely to find others with profiles similar to your own. Tribes results are not proof, either for or against, admixture of any particular ancestry. And the Tribes test is simply not capable of resolving issues of minor ancestral admixture.

    There are only two admixture testing options available at present: DNAPrints' AncestrybyDNA and Euro tests; and the genome-wide scans available from DeCodeMe and 23andMe and others.

    See:

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by RegRiv
    ...
    I don't get why my Amazonian is 0, yet Brazil is #3 and #9 in my top 10 global matches? ...
    Because the Amazonians are a population with a demographic history different from that of Brazilians and the chief difference is likely type and degree of admixture with Brazilians more admixed and admixed from a greater number of source populations than the Amazonians.

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