Tribes scores

[Sonia]

Puzzles

I have strongly suspected Native American ancestry. My top three matches in the DNA Tribes High Resolution World Region Match were:

Finno-Ugrian 5.4
Northwest European: 4.5
Mestizo: 2.6

I am half Finnish. My Ancestry by DNA scores were: 85% European, 5% Native Amer., 5% East Asian, 5% Sub-Saharan African.

My DNA Tribes test results did not show any Sub-Sah. Afri. matches. Puzzling...
Judy

Hi Judy,
I wonder what the Car Talk Brothers would do with our puzzlers It's cool that you had 5% on your ABD and the Mestizo came up. My Gram's ABD was 82% Sub-Saharan African and 18% European, while her Tribes had Sub-Saharan as the top World match at 0.4, her 19th on Part B & C were her only African matches (Egypt, at that.)

[tomcat]

Tom,
What's also puzzling is that I know I'm half Finnish, but my DNA Tribes test showed my top Native population match to be Estonian 17.3. Finnish is only number nineteen with 5.2. My top Global Population Match was Estonian 17.3; Finland doesn't even appear in those test results!
I've tested twice with DNA Tribes and both times received pretty strong scores of Brazilian and Mestizo. My ancestors were from Finland, Ireland, Scotland, Native America, and possibly Africa. Is it common for people with North Amerindian ancestry to score high Brazilian matches? The Brazilian is a great puzzle for me. It may just mean that the test is picking up my mixture of Euro., Nat. Amer., and African, similar to people in Brazil.
Did you also score high on Estonian? Judy

I did get a Finno-Ugric score on World and a match to Finland in Native/Global. I am not, to the best of my limited knowledge, Finnish. But the source population for Finns and Estonians is Central Asian just like Native Americans so I am just ignoring those matches as meaningful to my genealogy and taking them as an index of Native American. All my Hispanic Diaspora matches are far south of my area of origin in the Upper Midwest so I am ignoring them as significant in my genealogy and taking them as mere confirmation of my mixed-race ancestry.

I have two East European Native/Global matches that seem appropriate to my paternal grandparents and a Mediterranean cluster - Italy, France, Spain that may indicate something of my mother's non-Native, European ancestry.

Tom

[Noaide]

I did get a Finno-Ugric score on World and a match to Finland in Native/Global. I am not, to the best of my limited knowledge, Finnish. But the source population for Finns and Estonians is Central Asian just like Native Americans

I must remind you that the Finno-Ugric populations in older times existed much further west than today, we are possibly talking about so far west as Poland. During the Slavic expansion into these areas the Finno-Ugrians become Slavic, the Slavic women followed to Ukraine and Belorussia, while the men continued further east and north. Only the most northern Finno-Ugrian populations survived and kept some of their language.

Also please remember that the Finns and Estonians mostly have European mtDNA and Y-DNA, the autosomal distances to other European populations is rather small. As far as I know Y-DNA N3a is of eastern European origin.

Noaide

[tomcat]

Noaide,

If there is no genetic correspondence between Finno-Ugric people and Native Americans why did you get a 4% Native American score on your ABDNA, and why do those alleles that read most strongly Native American on American databases read Finnish/Estonian on European databases? (See post #35 on Native American 'Tribes thread for the results).

And is it not notable that such genetic evidence lends support to the long-standing linguistic evidence of the Uralic root of Finnish?

And per yours - "An interesting finding has been the detection of at least two distinct Y haplogroups in the Finnish male samples. One of those is frequently found also in other European populations, but the other (haplogroup N) most probably arrived here from the east." Sajantila and Peltonen in Jobling "Human Evolutionary Genetics 2004.

In other threads on topics Finnish your position has been characterized as based on phenotypic evidence. Whether that fairly characterizes your objection to the linguistic evidence or not, I would also point-out that ancient Native Americans did not fully resemble Native Americans of the historic period. Native Americans got to look like Native Americans by living in America, by experiencing all the environment and populations stressors that made them who they were/are.

Moreover, the Native position on origins is that Native Americans arose, sui generis, on these continents and crossed the Bering land bridge heading East to give rise to all the other peoples of the world, possibly including Finns!

Tom

[Noaide]

In other threads on topics Finnish your position has been characterized as based on phenotypic evidence.

I have been been primarly looking at mtDNA, Y-DNA and autosomal research papers and in these threads I have documented the basis for my view, the phenotype evidence support the DNA evidence.

Of course there has been some immigration from Asia but as far as I can see these have been minor in influence.

Noaide

[burto]

Would it be fair to assume someone of Eastern European origin would get quite a substantial score on their World region for Finno-Ugraian?
Also does anyone know whether the North Indians migrated into Europe?

[Maria_W]

Was 7.3, now 3.2.

Hi Burto.
Originally I got a 7.3 on my Finno_Urgrian score. I just did a new update(they added 11 new populations, Bosian and Brazil) and now my score has dropped down to 3.2 but some of my other scores have changed quite alot. Will post my new results in tribes thread later. That actually is a complex question. I don't believe I have ever heard of groups of Native Americans migrating to Europe from my ancestral time frame which is the 1600's to present. You have to know the Native mindset about Europeans, alot of them are quite offended by them, so to migrate into Europe would be very unlikely. Some Native Americans don't accept me because I am Native/European mix. I went to a website that had a forum and I posted there and some Native Americans accepted me but there were some who made my time there very tough becasue I was mixed. Now I think I am stronger and could hold my own, but be sure to wear a flame retartant outfit. I ended up leaving . I know its not fair becasue we can't I pick and choose our ancestors. Of course now their are indidvidual Native Americans who live in Europe becasue of the military or for whatever reason.
Maria

[burto]

I meant North Indians as in people who live in North India
Tribes have told me that it is not uncommon for Europeans to show North Indian scores as Europeans invaded North India.

[Maria_W]

Oops! My bad!

Well, now its my turn to missunderstand! I have no idea! Maria

[Maria_W]

2.3 North India.

Well, I have a 2.3 on North India, up from 1.9. If you find out let me know. Maria

[PBJ]

DNA tribes results

Hi Sonia,
I am glad you posted. I just got my DNA tribes results and I am more puzzled than ever with the results. Like your 101 year old gram, I have similar results. Autosomal results were 68% Sub-Saharan and 32% European. I have always known of the high mixture in my family but my Tribes results indicate Tujai (Hunan, China)13.0 in Part B. Malay 13.3 on Part C and North Indian 28.6 in part D. Each represents the strongest matches. My Native pop matches are a mixture of Ireland, Japan, Germany, Turkish, Spain, Italy, Egyptian, India and Estonia to name a few. Very low Sub-Saharan on my world region match. I am an L3 according to mtDNA testing through FTDNA.
Wow, I feel as if I just took a round the world tour.
I don't know what to make of this, could it be an indication of anything else? Am I missing something that I should be looking for here.

PBJ

[burto]

Have I found something?

I have just been on Omnipop and RCMP to do comparisons for each seperate allele. I can fairly easily distinguish which allele probably came from which parent as there is a clear Caucasian/Native American pattern for 7 of the markers but often there isn't much difference between the scores of either racial group so I think it's hard to be 100% certain. There are some ambiguous scores where there is not much difference between the major ethnic groups and here I can't detect who passed on what, but what has surprised me is a definate NA/IE divide on the FGA marker:
With Omnipop it was very clear that one allele was most definately Native..the top 8 scores and overall picture suggested Native and other allele most definately Caucasian. What surprised me was the RCMP score. For the same allele the top score was the equivalent to 1 in 20 Salishans and 1 in 21 Apaches sharing this allele...other tribes were around 1 in 40 for Caucasians the scores started at 1 in 140 then 1 in 222, 1 in 232 and 1 in 272! Asian scores were similar and SSAF were way off.
Out of every allele I have tested this seems to be the strongest that suggests Native ancestry. Would it be fair to assume I inheirited this from my American Grandfather?
Putting the markers in together it suggests on RCMP Caucasian overall which I would expect but thought this was very interesting.

[tomcat]

One in twenty or twenty one are long-shot odds but way better than what you got for any other population. So, under the rules of this game you can say the allele is most likely Native and as there are no other identified sources for it, is most likely from your American grandfather.

Tom

[burto]

Found another...
On the D3 Marker there was a clear split between Native American and Caucasian but the score was amazing:
Apache 2.11E0! Caucasian was at least 1.16E1 and only Native and Japanese scores fell into the E0 catagory.
Sure enough on Omnipop the top 5 scores are:
Navajo 1.82E+00
Apache 2.13E+00
RCMP Salishan (Coastal BC) 3.68E+00
Salishan Native Americans 3.80E+00
Puna (North west Argentina) 4.04E+00
It is high on Hispanic and Oriental scores too suggesting to me a Native link.

[burto]

Meant to say that was just for one allele..the other was Caucasian.