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World view on the Finnish in 1924

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  • World view on the Finnish in 1924

    I found this old article from 1924. I think it's funny how the world saw us back then. I hope the view has changed a bit since then, although it wasn't all bad, it isn't very accurate IMO:

    http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article297ce.htm

    As regards physical structure, the Finns are, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, "a strong, hardy race, of low stature, with almost round head, low forehead, flat features, prominent cheek bones, eyes mostly grey and oblique, short and flat nose, protruding mouth, thick lips, neck very full and strong; - complexion also somewhat brown." In this characterization of the Finns it is noticeable that the theory of Mongolinism undoubtedly possesses the mind of the writer, as he concludes that these "characteristics they have in common with the socalled Mongolian race." Prof. R. Tigerstedt, a noted Finnish physiologist, gives the figures regarding the height of different European races.

    These figures represent averages as shown by the conscription statistics of the respective countries. According to this study the Finns are not of low stature but belong among the tallest people of Europe. The official publication of Finland proves as much. It states that "the people of Finland are strong and comparatively tall". It further says concerning other physical features that "the majority are fair", and "about 78 % of the people are blue-eyed and about 57 % are light-haired".6 We are inclined, on the basis of our personal knowledge of the matter, to agree with the latter opinion.

    The Finns are reputed to be "morally upright, hospitable, faithful, and submissive, with a keen sense of personal freedom and independence, but also somewhat stolid, revengeful, and indolent".7 Their stolidity does not, however, seem to bother them in America, for the Finnish children in general are among the brightest pupils in our public schools; and as to their indolence, it cannot be said to be common with them. The Finns have made an enviable name for themselves in America as hard and competent workers in the mines, on the farms, textile factories, and other lines of occupation which they may have chosen. They possess instead remarkable teachability as is shown by their adeptness in various kinds of labor in which they may have been placed and concerning which they had no previous experience. Prof. L.A. Chase remarks, in his book on "Rural Michigan", that "the Finnish farmer is the most teachable of any national element and his capacity for cooperation is notable".8

    Another characteristic quality of the Finnish nature is its obstinacy, which may, again, be interpreted in two ways. It may be due to stupidity and dullness, and then it is a negative quality, but if it indicates perseverance and determination to overcome hardships and difficulties, then it must be reckoned as a positive factor. And modern psychologists are disposed to look upon the will and various functions of the mind as constituting a unity, so that where there is strong will it also indicates strong feeling and a higher degree of intelligence. It is only as if we were looking at the same thing from different angles and aspects. Prof J. Royce says that will implies cognition, and Paulsen, Wundt, and other scientists of the biological school take the same view.

  • #2
    The original Finno-Ugrian tribes that moved into what is now Finland probably were Mongolian in appearance, judging by their counterparts in Central and Northern Asia. Millenia of residing with and among Scandinavian neighbors has no doubt resulted in considerable admixture and altered that appearance, just as living in Central Europe has in the case of the Hungarians (Magyars).

    It's been awhile since I read them, but aren't their descriptions of Finns in some of the sagas that speak of them as being swarthy and having Mongolian features?

    Obviously modern Finns are another matter. Of the few Finnish-Americans I've known, none of them was short or Mongolian looking. One of them was exceptionally tall.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Stevo
      The original Finno-Ugrian tribes that moved into what is now Finland probably were Mongolian in appearance, judging by their counterparts in Central and Northern Asia. Millenia of residing with and among Scandinavian neighbors has no doubt resulted in considerable admixture and altered that appearance, just as it has in the case of the Hungarians (Magyars).

      It's been awhile since I read them, but aren't their descriptions of Finns in some of the sagas that speak of them as being swarthy and having Mongolian features?

      Obviously modern Finns are another matter. Of the few Finnish-Americans I've known, none of them was short or Mongolian looking. One of them was exceptionally tall.
      Yes, the haplogroup N, which is the most common in Eastern Finland most likely comes from Siberia, and people in Eastern Finland are in average a little shorter and more round headed than those in Western Finland. But it looks like the description in 1924 Encyclopedia Britannica was based on just few inviduals, or perhaps they had never seen a Finn but based their assumptions on the theories of the Finns originating from Asia.

      The Finns they mention in the sagas might have been the Saami, who are in average shorter and darker than the Finns. Furthermore the difference between western and eastern Finns was probably bigger in the times the sagas tell about, but this article was from 1924 and I don't think people have changed that much since then.

      Comment


      • #4
        N3 originate in Europe

        Originally posted by Eki
        Yes, the haplogroup N, which is the most common in Eastern Finland most likely comes from Siberia, and people in Eastern Finland are in average a little shorter and more round headed than those in Western Finland. But it looks like the description in 1924 Encyclopedia Britannica was based on just few inviduals, or perhaps they had never seen a Finn but based their assumptions on the theories of the Finns originating from Asia.

        The Finns they mention in the sagas might have been the Saami, who are in average shorter and darker than the Finns. Furthermore the difference between western and eastern Finns was probably bigger in the times the sagas tell about, but this article was from 1924 and I don't think people have changed that much since then.
        Eki,

        N3 may have come from Siberia, but not necessarly. It may also be and old eastern European haplogroup that expanded into Siberia.

        To say N3 it came from Siberia do make some problems. If we assume that the current population haplogroup mix for the Siberians, Mongols and East Asians is the indigenous one and that this group moved westwards towards eastern Europe and Scandinavia we should expect to se considerable frequences of haplogroup N2, Q and C because these are well represented in these areas, because as we know nobody could possibly know what haplogroup they belonged too, so the "haplonazi" factor effect is zero.

        However only N3 is seen well represented among the Finns and in the neightbouring populations in Eastern Europe with only very small minority occurences of N2, Q and C that can be categorized as wild fliers or noise rementant from recent Mongol invations.

        It is obiously then that N3 may have not come from Siberia recently, if it came from Siberia it must have been ancient and long before the N2, C and Q begun moving into the source areas. Another explanation may be that N3 have been in Eastern Europe for quite some time, already present in what become the Finnic-Ugric populations already at the last ice age.

        Noaide

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, those theories are of course possible. You know the N3 haplogroup better than I do. I was just going with the old theories of the Fenno-Ugric languages originating from the Ural mountains and the arrow of Hg N (LLY22G) in the GenographicProject atlas, which aren't necessarily accurate.

          Originally posted by Noaide
          Eki,

          N3 may have come from Siberia, but not necessarly. It may also be and old eastern European haplogroup that expanded into Siberia.

          To say N3 it came from Siberia do make some problems. If we assume that the current population haplogroup mix for the Siberians, Mongols and East Asians is the indigenous one and that this group moved westwards towards eastern Europe and Scandinavia we should expect to se considerable frequences of haplogroup N2, Q and C because these are well represented in these areas, because as we know nobody could possibly know what haplogroup they belonged too, so the "haplonazi" factor effect is zero.

          However only N3 is seen well represented among the Finns and in the neightbouring populations in Eastern Europe with only very small minority occurences of N2, Q and C that can be categorized as wild fliers or noise rementant from recent Mongol invations.

          It is obiously then that N3 may have not come from Siberia recently, if it came from Siberia it must have been ancient and long before the N2, C and Q begun moving into the source areas. Another explanation may be that N3 have been in Eastern Europe for quite some time, already present in what become the Finnic-Ugric populations already at the last ice age.

          Noaide

          Comment


          • #6
            At the risk of getting into an argument (which I will not hang around for anyway), it doesn't seem likely that the Finno-Ugrian N3 population of Finland originated in Eastern Europe (unless by "Eastern Europe" one means "just west of the Urals"), not when other Ns, who also speak Uralic languages, live out in Central and Northern Asia and when we know from historical accounts that the related Magyars of Hungary came into Europe from Central Asia.

            What's wrong with having Asiatic ancestors who probably had Mongolian features?

            Is that something to avoid?

            Why is it somehow better to look like a Swede than a Siberian?
            Last edited by Stevo; 26 August 2006, 02:10 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Finns (Asiatic?)

              Hello,
              I've often seen messages (here and on other forums) denying that the Finns are Asiatic and contending that they are all blonde and blue-eyed. This is not true for my family!! My Finnish immigrant (to U.S.) grandfather and his family were black haired and dark skinned, quite Mongolian in appearance. My grandfather had prominent cheekbones, a broad face, and grey eyes. He married my Finnish grandmother, who was a bit more Swedish looking, with lighter skin tone and brown hair.
              Does anyone else have DARK Finnish ancestors and family members? Sometimes I think I'm the only one. Unfortunately I don't know my paternal haplogroup, but my nephew's being tested.
              Judy

              Comment


              • #8
                Here is a photo of a Saami family from about 1900. Their appearance is rather Asiatic.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  What's wrong with having Asiatic ancestors who probably had Mongolian features?
                  Nothing. It's just not very accurate to describe all Finns with a single stereotype. It's like saying all modern Americans look like Native Americans. They contributed to the gene pool, but so did many other ethnic groups.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stevo
                    Here is a photo of a Saami family from about 1900. Their appearance is rather Asiatic.
                    The article wasn't talking about the Saami, it was talking about the Finns.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eki
                      The article wasn't talking about the Saami, it was talking about the Finns.
                      So, you're saying there is no relationship between the two groups, either linguistically or genetically?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eki
                        Nothing. It's just not very accurate to describe all Finns with a single stereotype. It's like saying all modern Americans look like Native Americans. They contributed to the gene pool, but so did many other ethnic groups.
                        I was talking about deep ancestry, about the original Finns, not about modern Finns and what they look like. That has nothing to do with stereotyping anyone.

                        If modern Finns have come to look more and more like Swedes, that is not surprising. Apparently there has been a lot of admixture from Scandinavians.

                        But there is still nothing wrong with the fact that the original Finns were probably Mongolian in appearance.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stevo
                          So, you're saying there is no relationship between the two groups, either linguistically or genetically?
                          No, but they are of different genetic mix and speak a different language, which are not mutually understood (although most if not all Finnish Saami also speak Finnish, because they are a very small minority of few thousand people).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Eki
                            No, but they are of different genetic mix and speak a different language, which are not mutually understood (although most if not all Finnish Saami also speak Finnish, because they are a very small minority of few thousand people).
                            The Saami language is in the Finno-Ugric family, just as Finnish is, even if they are not now mutually intelligible.

                            Aren't the Saami mostly N3 and I1a?

                            (That's an honest question.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Regarding the Sami population Asiatic apperance it is very common. I live in the north of sweden and a lot of people have grandparents whoa are of Sami orgin. These people are in general darker and have high cheekbones that makes their eyes "smaller". Very simoular to the Asian population.

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