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  • #46
    Originally posted by royroy
    Hi Victor,

    Yes, I guess by more people who can confirm their origin joining the database, it definitely helps those who may not be sure. You worded it best.

    By the way:

    I went to the link, and noticed I'm in the E3b1 = E3b1a = M78+ group. I honestly still don't know what that means. Still reading up on this stuff.

    As for the marker values, do you mean the following?

    <<<clipped>>>

    That's all my SNP test returned. Perhaps I need a further test with more markers.
    Hi Roy,

    Thanks for posting your marker values. I wasn't sure if you had already joined the E3b project or not.

    Basically, and at the risk of oversimplifying a complex matter, all persons who share a mutation or SNP also share a common ancestor. At some point in the past a genetic mutation took place in a single individual that was subsequently "inherited" to all his male descendants.

    The first individual where a unique event known as a Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) happened represents a node in a haplogroup's structure; it is the point where a new limb branches out in the phylogenetic tree. What we aspire to know, if possible, is where and when each mutation happened, because it would help us to speculate or elaborate theories about the probable whereabouts of our paternal ancestors in historical times.

    Of course we all have accumulated more than one mutation or SNP. In general terms, the older an SNP is the more people it links us to in the distant past. The basic premise is that all living humans share a Common Ancestor. If we could trace back the evolution of our genes we'd find that all converge in a single individual tens of thousands of years ago.

    In determining our subclades we're going from the generals to the particulars; from the trunk and big branches to the smaller branches and limbs; from E to E3; from E3 to E3b; from E3b to E3b1; from E3b1 to E3b1a, etc..

    It is reasonable to expect that in the not too distant future technology will provide us with genetic tools to reach an even higher phylogenetic resolution where we'll be able to identify particular "twigs" in the tree. It is as this level where it is possible to find significant correlations between genetics and genealogy.

    So, returning to your haplotype, your 12 marker values will help to make a basic comparison to other haplotypes. If you ever find an exact 12/12 match or a near 11/12 match from someone with a similar surname or similar geographical origin then you could start thinking about ordering the extended haplotype markers to either confirm or discard a definitive relationship.

    IMO, at the 12 marker level any comparison that results in a genetic distance over 2 is usually not very significant, unless there are other strong indicators of relatedness.

    Victor

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Victor

      It is reasonable to expect that in the not too distant future technology will provide us with genetic tools to reach an even higher phylogenetic resolution where we'll be able to identify particular "twigs" in the tree. It is as this level where it is possible to find significant correlations between genetics and genealogy.

      So, returning to your haplotype, your 12 marker values will help to make a basic comparison to other haplotypes. If you ever find an exact 12/12 match or a near 11/12 match from someone with a similar surname or similar geographical origin then you could start thinking about ordering the extended haplotype markers to either confirm or discard a definitive relationship.

      IMO, at the 12 marker level any comparison that results in a genetic distance over 2 is usually not very significant, unless there are other strong indicators of relatedness.

      Victor
      A wise statement, from a wise person.

      For clarity’s sake I must say that I mentioned the 9/12 relation between royroy and I, because my currently closest genetic neighbour (26/37) in the E3b Project, is someone who was three steps off at 12 markers.

      Roberto

      Comment


      • #48
        Your comment about the 9/12 relation is very appropiate, Roberto. I've seen something similar with other haplotypes where a 9/12 match drops drastically when compared at the 25 or 37 level.

        I made my observation to Roy without really thinking about your previous post. I always assumed that your remark about the 9/12 coincidence wasn't implying any special significance or anything. But now that you bring it up, I realize that some readers could indeed assume a different meaning.

        Saludos,
        Victor

        p.s. (Me habeis hecho sonrojar con el cumplido inmerecido)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Victor
          Basically, and at the risk of oversimplifying a complex matter, all persons who share a mutation or SNP also share a common ancestor. At some point in the past a genetic mutation took place in a single individual that was subsequently "inherited" to all his male descendants.
          Victor

          being the contrarian [mixed domamant] i am couldnt say three people with oh lets say D OR C in different places couldnt mutate up down and around and eventually come to E3B

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jim Denning
            being the contrarian [mixed domamant] i am couldnt say three people with oh lets say D OR C in different places couldnt mutate up down and around and eventually come to E3B
            I suppose the possibility exists but the odds of that happening would be practically nill.

            If that would ever happened we would get conflicting YDNA results, like a person belonging to two haplogroups at the same time.

            ?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Victor
              I suppose the possibility exists but the odds of that happening would be practically nill.

              If that would ever happened we would get conflicting YDNA results, like a person belonging to two haplogroups at the same time.

              ?

              i have matches in O AND G IN THE HAPLOGROUP

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Jim Denning
                i have matches in O AND G IN THE HAPLOGROUP
                HAPLO 4STEP MATCHES
                H India - 1
                H Sri Lanka - 1
                O2 Indonesia - 1

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Jim Denning
                  i have matches in O AND G IN THE HAPLOGROUP
                  I thought you were refering to SNPs and not to STRs.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Non-Jewish E3b's

                    Victor et al,

                    I've been recently Y-dna tested and was astonished with e3b1 results. My patrilineal side was in question, with relatives still residing in Slovakia, mostly matrilineal on my father's side. Though my surname is Fulton and I tested within their surname project, there is some belief that the name was changed from Foltan, to americanize. Though great grand-dad reported Slovakia on Census, he spoke Slovak, Russian and German, which is somewhat strange. There was suspicion that German may be actual lineage, but e3b1 does not seem to indicate this. Now, my understanding of genetics is meager and I'm awaiting my deep subclade results, as well as books from Amazon, though i'm not too sure this is going to bring much clarity to the issue. From the little research I've done to date, e3b1 seems to be more mediterranean in origin. This is where our astonishment lies. Also suprising, was my one of only two 12 marker exact matches, an Ashkenazi Russian and a Serbian; 17 2-step mutation matches with ashkenazim, 12 3-step ashkenzai mutational matches, and 20 4-step mutation matches with a variety of Israeli Samaritans, Levites and Sephardim thrown in for good measure. Quick rough count indicates 60 of 300 (20%) consider themselves Jews. Of all the matches, none seem to congregate anywhere in particular, all seem scattered to the European winds and scant few reside in Mediterranean countries. I'm more confused now about my genetic heritage than ever.

                    Existentially Dissonant,

                    e3b1man

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by e3b1man
                      Victor et al,

                      I've been recently Y-dna tested and was astonished with e3b1 results. My patrilineal side was in question, with relatives still residing in Slovakia, mostly matrilineal on my father's side. Though my surname is Fulton and I tested within their surname project, there is some belief that the name was changed from Foltan, to americanize. Though great grand-dad reported Slovakia on Census, he spoke Slovak, Russian and German, which is somewhat strange. There was suspicion that German may be actual lineage, but e3b1 does not seem to indicate this. Now, my understanding of genetics is meager and I'm awaiting my deep subclade results, as well as books from Amazon, though i'm not too sure this is going to bring much clarity to the issue. From the little research I've done to date, e3b1 seems to be more mediterranean in origin. This is where our astonishment lies. Also suprising, was my one of only two 12 marker exact matches, an Ashkenazi Russian and a Serbian; 17 2-step mutation matches with ashkenazim, 12 3-step ashkenzai mutational matches, and 20 4-step mutation matches with a variety of Israeli Samaritans, Levites and Sephardim thrown in for good measure. Quick rough count indicates 60 of 300 (20%) consider themselves Jews. Of all the matches, none seem to congregate anywhere in particular, all seem scattered to the European winds and scant few reside in Mediterranean countries. I'm more confused now about my genetic heritage than ever.

                      Existentially Dissonant,

                      e3b1man
                      There are two factors here that relate to your situation.

                      First of all, comparing results at 12 markers only gives you a broad comparison. In most cases where two men with different surnames match exactly or closely at 12 markers, the close match and any possible relatedness, even in deep ancestry terms, falls apart if both upgrade to 25 or 37 markers and compare results again. So I wouldn't be too provoked about the matches you have unless they're at the 25 or, much better, 37 marker level.

                      The other factor is that FTDNA's database is skewed in a couple of ways. First of all, those with British Isles ancestry are overrepresented, since most American genealogists are of British Isles ancestry. That doesn't relate to your situation, but the other overrepresented group in the FTDNA database is those of Jewish ancestry. One of the big breakthroughs in genetic genealogy was the discovery of the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) several years ago. This showed that Jewish men who had a history of being in the priestly class (many surnamed Cohen) did have similar results, called CMH. This is in J1 and some in J2, not E3b, but I believe it caused many Jewish genealogists, beyond their percentage in the general population, to test their DNA to see if they have the CMH. So, Jewish ancestry is somewhat over-represented in the database here.

                      Since, as you point out, E3b is a Mediterranean haplogroup, there are many Jews who are members of it. But E3b has been around as a haplogroup long before there was a people or religion called Jewish. E3b is regarded, along with J2, as the haplogroup that was a major component of the Neolithic migrations about 10,000 years ago that brought agriculture from the Middle East to Europe. Initially it was brought to the Balkans and southern Italy and Sicily, but you can guess that over the next few thousand years many of the descendants of these Neolithic migrators moved north, into central and northern Europe. That's probably the explanation for your Slovakian or even German ancestry being E3b. And your deep clade results may enable you to narrow down even more your deep ancestry and how it arrived in Slovakia.

                      Have you joined the E3b project yet? If not, you should, because the project administrator would probably be able to help you understand better what your results mean.

                      Mike Maddi
                      Last edited by MMaddi; 7 September 2007, 08:22 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        MMaddi,

                        Thanks for the information regarding possible skewed results. I certainly, don't want to jump to conclusions, based on overly represented participant groups. I will probably pay for the upgrades inevitably, to gain greater refinement.

                        My familiarity with the neolithic migrations is limited, mostly gathered from information well presented on the National Geographic Genographic Project website. I also have Spencer Wells book "Deep Ancestry: Inside the Genographic Project", on order with Amazon. Could you recommend other websites, studies, or books that will make me less dangerous in my analysis/conclusions. You mentioned the E3b project. I am not familar with this; how does one go about joining?

                        Appreciative of your efforts,

                        e3b1man

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          e3b1man,

                          Are you the single E3b1 on the Fulton project webpage? If so, I can tell you that your marker values are extremely close to the 'modal' (most common) 12-marker haplotype for E3b. Therefore, you're going to match a wide variety of people who have these values.

                          As Mike mentioned, 12 markers gives a broad comparison. An exact match with someone who has a different surname might be related at least 1000 years ago. A non-exact match at 12 markers, especially 3- and 4-step mismatches, might take the relationship back thousands of years.

                          In order to find out who you're related to in a genealogical timeframe (hundreds of years), you'll definitely need to upgrade to more markers and see who you match at the higher level. You can upgrade to 25, 37 or 67 markers. I highly recommend at least 37 -- you probably still won't get enough differentiation with only 25.

                          The deep-clade test that you have on order will tell you which subgroup of E3b1 you are in, which will further clarify your ancient origins. There isn't a test currently available that can definitively pinpoint a recent country of origin. Finding out who you match most closely at more markers, and learning what those matches report as their country of origin, will be your best lead at this time.

                          You can join the E3b project while remaining in the Fulton project. Go to the E3b project website, click Request to Join This Group at the top left, log in to your FTDNA account, then click the Join button below the project description.

                          http://www.ftdna.com/public/e3b

                          The E3b project also has a secondary website and dedicated discussion board:

                          http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project
                          http://community.haplozone.net

                          Hope this helps!

                          Elise
                          Last edited by efgen; 7 September 2007, 11:04 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            12 Marker Upgrade

                            Elise,

                            I am indeed the only e3b1 on the Fulton Surname project. You stated that my marker values are modal for 12-marker haplotype. Can you tell me where I can make these comparisons? I have the values but am not sure what they represent. Like I told Mike, I am the epitome of a neophyte in genetics, and all information and clarification is not only appreciated, but highly requisite.

                            Thanks for the advice on upgrading. The 67 marker upgrade gets a bit pricey. Have you heard comments whether people feel the additional cash is worth the greater refinement obtained vis-a-vis 25-marker upgrade.

                            The information on the E3b project and associated websites is much appreciated. I've already joined and probably will spend hours there tonight.

                            Kind Regards,

                            e3b1man

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by e3b1man
                              You stated that my marker values are modal for 12-marker haplotype. Can you tell me where I can make these comparisons?
                              Just to clarify, your values are "almost" modal -- not completely You wouldn't know this just by looking at your own values -- the information comes from analyzing many E3b haplotypes.

                              The E3b Haplozone website has a list of modals for the 3 major E3b1 subclades:

                              http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/loadview/15

                              You differ from the E3b1a modal by 3 markers -- DYS391, DYS385a, DYS439.
                              You also differ from the E3b1c1 modal by 3 markers -- DYS391, DYS439, DYS389-2.

                              So when you look at the Haplogroup page in your MyFTDNA account, you will see that some of your close matches are E3b1a and others are E3b1c1.

                              You can see that the E3b1a and E3b1c1 modals are very similar to each other through the 25 marker level. The differences are at 385a, 389-2, 458 and 464b.

                              DYS385, DYS439 and DYS464 are considered fast mutators. DYS391 and DYS389-2 are considered slow mutators. Fast vs slow was determined through a mutation rate study of father-son pairs. Some markers were more likely to be different between father and son than others. The ones that were more likely to differ are considered fast and the ones that were less likely to differ are considered slow.

                              All markers are important when you're comparing yourself to others in a genealogical timeframe and seeing how many differences there are between you -- you want the closest match possible. However, from a bird's eye view of the haplotypes and subclades, the slow markers are more important. So when I look at the E3b1a vs E3b1c1 modals, I see two extremely close modals that differ on only one slow marker -- 389-2.

                              Now look at the 37/67-marker modals:

                              http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/loadview/16

                              The 37-marker panel goes from DYS460 through DYS438, then the 67-marker panel goes from DYS531 through the end of the list. You'll see that there's much more variation between E3b1a and E3b1c1 at these levels. There's more variation between individuals as this level as well.

                              Thanks for the advice on upgrading. The 67 marker upgrade gets a bit pricey. Have you heard comments whether people feel the additional cash is worth the greater refinement obtained vis-a-vis 25-marker upgrade.
                              Yes, the 67-marker upgrade does get quite pricey, but the 37-marker upgrade is more reasonable and will give you more refinement than the 25-marker upgrade. As shown above, with only 25 markers, there's little variation between two different subclades that are each thousands of years old, and you'll find that there's less variation between individuals at that level as well. However, at the 37-marker level, there's increased variation between population groups and individuals and it'll definitely help show who you're most closely related to in a genealogical timeframe.

                              Elise
                              Last edited by efgen; 8 September 2007, 12:41 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Elise,

                                I appreciate the explanation and advice you've shared. I've been trying to decide how much time and money to invest in my cousin's E3b1 dna sample, as he's a direct male descendant in my maternal grandfather's line. Now I think I'm going to order the 12-37 upgrade, as I'm waiting for the deep SNP results to come in. I'm also surprised at the differences between J1 and E3b as to what should be tested. I'm glad I went with the 67 upgrade on J1, as it indicates that my own paternal line might be a new subgroup in that haplogroup. Likewise, do you have any advice on the "v-series" or other tests for E3b?

                                Vinnie

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