Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Non-Jewish E3b's with....

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by robe3b
    OK, Rossi, here we go:

    Two step mutations: 3 Ashkenazi men out of five people (60 %).

    Three step mutations: 7 Samaritan persons out of 26 9/12 "near" matches (26,9 %).

    Four step mutations: 9 Samaritans and 7 Ashkenazis out of 49 people (32,6 %).

    Very common, I think.
    What ethnicity is your surname?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by LeoLoS
      Have there been any scientific researchs that could back up such a statement? Otherwise I am afraid it could be just like with the results stated in the thread "Crypto-Jews among Spanish-Americans"; "Although Spanish-Americans undoubtedly have some Jewish ancestry, they appear to have no more than do Iberians. The crypto-Jewish scenario proposed by Hordes (1993, 1996) is refuted by these results."

      That means the statement that Jewish conversos should have mass-emigrated to Latin America and made up a lot more of the DNA in the population over there than compared to Spain is just rumours. It could be the same thing with your lost tribes.

      One major point. The Lost Tribes were not Jews. There were pagans.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Rossi
        What ethnicity is your surname?
        Spanish, originated in the Basque Country.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by robe3b
          Spanish, originated in the Basque Country.
          So, your surname can be classified as Basque, distinct from Spanish?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Rossi
            So, your surname can be classified as Basque, distinct from Spanish?
            Rossi, the answer is no. My surname is a very Spanish one, despite the fact that it had its origin in the Basque Country. The surname in question is common in some Latin American countries, too.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by robe3b
              Spanish, originated in the Basque Country.
              Do you mean a person originating from Basque Country with a Spanish surname? Do you know whether the person in question was of Basque, Spanish or somewhat else origin? Just intrested, as Basques should have only about 2-3% E3b, and mainly E3b2, but you are E3b1 which then could indicate another origin. I suppose you checked out the thread Basques and E3b in The Genographic Project, where I was wondering about this topic.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by robe3b
                Rossi, the answer is no. My surname is a very Spanish one, despite the fact that it had its origin in the Basque Country. The surname in question is common in some Latin American countries, too.
                Okay. I have two close matches in the LA settlement of the Basques with a minimal haplotype on YHRD. Anyway:

                Possibilities:

                1. Pre or post LGM incursion into the Iberian Peninsula from North Africa but with relatives moving into Middle East and ultimately embracing Judaism.

                2. Balkan expansion into Iberia but with relatives moving into the Middle East and ultimately embracing Judaism.

                3. Arrival with the Phoenicians (Iberians), the Hebrew connection (Conjecture).

                4. Arrival with the Celts, the Hebrew connection (Conjecture).

                5. Conversion of relatives to Judaism at a later time.

                6. Your line disavowing the Hebrew or Jewish connection at a later date.


                I am sure I missed other possibilities.


                If DYS391 is 11 and DYS19 is 14 in your haplotype then I would pick option 4.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rossi
                  Okay. I have two close matches in the LA settlement of the Basques with a minimal haplotype on YHRD. Anyway:

                  Possibilities:

                  1. Pre or post LGM incursion into the Iberian Peninsula from North Africa but with relatives moving into Middle East and ultimately embracing Judaism.

                  2. Balkan expansion into Iberia but with relatives moving into the Middle East and ultimately embracing Judaism.

                  3. Arrival with the Phoenicians (Iberians), the Hebrew connection (Conjecture).

                  4. Arrival with the Celts, the Hebrew connection (Conjecture).

                  5. Conversion of relatives to Judaism at a later time.

                  6. Your line disavowing the Hebrew or Jewish connection at a later date.


                  I am sure I missed other possibilities.


                  If DYS391 is 11 and DYS19 is 14 in your haplotype then I would pick option 4.
                  Interesting hypotheses, Rossi. My 12 markers haplotype values (FT DNA order) are:

                  13, 24, 15, 10, 17, 19, 11, 12, 12, 12, 11, 29

                  I have found only two near matches in the YHRD database: for markers DYS 19, DYS 390, DYS 391, DYS 392, DYS 393, DYS 389I, DYS 389 II and DYS 385a, b: one step mutation with a man from Syria, and someone from Argentina. Somewhat weird, isn't it?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robe3b
                    Interesting hypotheses, Rossi. My 12 markers haplotype values (FT DNA order) are:

                    13, 24, 15, 10, 17, 19, 11, 12, 12, 12, 11, 29

                    I have found only two near matches in the YHRD database: for markers DYS 19, DYS 390, DYS 391, DYS 392, DYS 393, DYS 389I, DYS 389 II and DYS 385a, b: one step mutation with a man from Syria, and someone from Argentina. Somewhat weird, isn't it?
                    Sorry Rossi, a further explanation is needed. In both cases the mismatch occurs at DYS 385 a, b. My values: 17, 19. Theirs: 17, 18; 18, 19.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LeoLoS
                      Do you mean a person originating from Basque Country with a Spanish surname? Do you know whether the person in question was of Basque, Spanish or somewhat else origin? Just intrested, as Basques should have only about 2-3% E3b, and mainly E3b2, but you are E3b1 which then could indicate another origin. I suppose you checked out the thread Basques and E3b in The Genographic Project, where I was wondering about this topic.
                      LeoLoS,

                      I have already explained that my surname originated in the Basque Country, but later expanded throughout the Spanish Kingdoms. During the Spanish Renaissance it was the surname of a very prominent and large family. But...
                      it became very common among conversos.
                      The weird thing is that my closest matches in FT DNA databases are people from Eastern Europe and the British Isles. Concerning my near matches in the YHRD database, please read the previous post.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robe3b
                        LeoLoS,

                        I have already explained that my surname originated in the Basque Country, but later expanded throughout the Spanish Kingdoms. During the Spanish Renaissance it was the surname of a very prominent and large family. But...
                        it became very common among conversos.
                        The weird thing is that my closest matches in FT DNA databases are people from Eastern Europe and the British Isles. Concerning my near matches in the YHRD database, please read the previous post.
                        Sorry if I was a bit intrusive Roberto.

                        But it seems to me that a Spanish (not Basque) surname originating from Alava, Vitoria (this place I suppose, http://www.hernandezrabal.com/espan...ava/vitoria.htm, as you told me earlier in another thread) could well indicate a converso ancestry. If you checked out the thread E3b and Basques; http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...9&page=6&pp=10
                        you maybe already noticed the article http://www.travel-watch.com/Basque.htm with following info:

                        "Nor was the Jewish burial ground in Vitoria-Gasteiz, an hour’s drive south of Bilbao. This gleaming city is the capital and crown jewel of the Basque, an orderly metropolis with more parks and gardens than any other city in Spain, broad promenades that are lined with handsome Gothic and neo-Classical buildings and plazas adorned with fountains and statues. Strategically located along the routes to France, Castille, and Navarre, Vitoria-Gasteiz has been a major commercial center since the middle ages which perhaps explains why this city, unlike the rest of the Basque, had a thriving Jewish community of merchants, traders, craftsmen, and doctors up to the expulsion of 1492. Their well preserved homes still stand along the Calle Nueva, formerly the Calle Juderia, in the Old Quarter, a dark and narrow street where Gothic structures from the simple tradesman’s house to the merchant’s palace huddle one against the other.

                        Half a mile away, the eastern edge of the city center is marked by a long, narrow stretch of parkland. This is the Parque de Judimendi -- the center for the neighborhood’s social life. On a typical day, it is filled with old people sitting on benches in the sun, children romping in the playground, mothers pushing babies in their prams. Every June, it is the site of the city’s Summer Solstice Festival. Prior to the expulsion, it was Vitoria-Gasteiz’s Jewish cemetery.

                        When they left in 1492, the Jews extracted a promise from city leaders that their sacred burial ground would not be violated. This was a promise that was kept. Although tombstones deteriorated and disappeared over the years, the land was kept intact. All proposals for construction on the site -- from houses to markets to stables to parking lots -- were met with the same response: it is forbidden. Four hundred and fifty years later, a delegation of descendants of the Vitoria-Gasteiz exiles came to the city from Bayonne, France and presented officials with a formal release from the centuries’ old vow. But their offer was declined. Instead city officials elected to commemorate the place in perpetuity by erecting the tall, narrow monument inscribed with a Star of David that stands in the park’s center and informs passerbys of the special nature of the place. This was 1952, sixteen years before the Edict of Expulsion was finally revoked, twenty six years before freedom of religion was finally guaranteed to all Spaniards, forty years before the 500th anniversary of the Expulsion was remembered with attendant publicity showered on Jewish landmarks throughout Spain.

                        The story of the burial ground in Vitoria-Gasteiz is little-known outside of the city. The story of a post-exile Jewish population in the Basque is nearly a secret. Perhaps now that the new Guggenheim has made not only Bilbao but all the Basque an international "hot spot," this modest but more humane chapter of the Spanish-Jewish connection will at last emerge for all the world to see."

                        Of the Jews from Vitoria-Gasteiz some left for France, some probably became conversos and among the conversos some stayed Crypto-Jews, like in the case above. One of them might have been an ancestor to you Roberto, as E3b1 is not common among Basques, they should only have some 2% E3b2.
                        Last edited by LeoLoS; 10 August 2006, 05:13 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LeoLoS
                          Sorry if I was a bit intrusive Roberto.

                          But it seems to me that a Spanish (not Basque) surname originating from Alava, Vitoria (this place I suppose, http://www.hernandezrabal.com/espan...ava/vitoria.htm, as you told me earlier in another thread) could well indicate a converso ancestry. If you checked out the thread E3b and Basques; http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...9&page=6&pp=10
                          you maybe already noticed the article http://www.travel-watch.com/Basque.htm with following info:

                          "Nor was the Jewish burial ground in Vitoria-Gasteiz, an hour’s drive south of Bilbao. This gleaming city is the capital and crown jewel of the Basque, an orderly metropolis with more parks and gardens than any other city in Spain, broad promenades that are lined with handsome Gothic and neo-Classical buildings and plazas adorned with fountains and statues. Strategically located along the routes to France, Castille, and Navarre, Vitoria-Gasteiz has been a major commercial center since the middle ages which perhaps explains why this city, unlike the rest of the Basque, had a thriving Jewish community of merchants, traders, craftsmen, and doctors up to the expulsion of 1492. Their well preserved homes still stand along the Calle Nueva, formerly the Calle Juderia, in the Old Quarter, a dark and narrow street where Gothic structures from the simple tradesman’s house to the merchant’s palace huddle one against the other.

                          Half a mile away, the eastern edge of the city center is marked by a long, narrow stretch of parkland. This is the Parque de Judimendi -- the center for the neighborhood’s social life. On a typical day, it is filled with old people sitting on benches in the sun, children romping in the playground, mothers pushing babies in their prams. Every June, it is the site of the city’s Summer Solstice Festival. Prior to the expulsion, it was Vitoria-Gasteiz’s Jewish cemetery.

                          When they left in 1492, the Jews extracted a promise from city leaders that their sacred burial ground would not be violated. This was a promise that was kept. Although tombstones deteriorated and disappeared over the years, the land was kept intact. All proposals for construction on the site -- from houses to markets to stables to parking lots -- were met with the same response: it is forbidden. Four hundred and fifty years later, a delegation of descendants of the Vitoria-Gasteiz exiles came to the city from Bayonne, France and presented officials with a formal release from the centuries’ old vow. But their offer was declined. Instead city officials elected to commemorate the place in perpetuity by erecting the tall, narrow monument inscribed with a Star of David that stands in the park’s center and informs passerbys of the special nature of the place. This was 1952, sixteen years before the Edict of Expulsion was finally revoked, twenty six years before freedom of religion was finally guaranteed to all Spaniards, forty years before the 500th anniversary of the Expulsion was remembered with attendant publicity showered on Jewish landmarks throughout Spain.

                          The story of the burial ground in Vitoria-Gasteiz is little-known outside of the city. The story of a post-exile Jewish population in the Basque is nearly a secret. Perhaps now that the new Guggenheim has made not only Bilbao but all the Basque an international "hot spot," this modest but more humane chapter of the Spanish-Jewish connection will at last emerge for all the world to see."

                          Of the Jews from Vitoria-Gasteiz some left for France, some probably became conversos and among the conversos some stayed Crypto-Jews, like in the case above. One of them might have been an ancestor to you Roberto, as E3b1 is not common among Basques, they should only have some 2% E3b2.
                          I really appreciate your help, LeoLoS, but I think that I'd rather be a descendant of the Marquis of Santillana. ¿Comprendido?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by robe3b
                            I really appreciate your help, LeoLoS, but I think that I'd rather be a descendant of the Marquis of Santillana. ¿Comprendido?
                            Comprendo! Don Íñigo López de Mendoza, marqués de Santillana (August 19, 1398 - March 25, 1458). From Ysearch I also see that you are a Mendoza. Therefore your post in the thread Sephardim: "Thus, a member of the Mendoza family was often surrounded by many conversos whose surname was also Mendoza (his secretary, his doctor, his tax collector, etc)". I hope you can back up your wish with some paper work, as his family was surrounded with so many conversos with the same name. BTW, from whom did he get that López name? Not from his father nor mother according to this info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8D%..._de_Santillana . From his wife?

                            What I don't really see is why the name Mendoza should had originated in Basque country, as it anyhow is a Spanish surname?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by LeoLoS
                              What I don't really see is why the name Mendoza should had originated in Basque country, as it anyhow is a Spanish surname?
                              Ok, found an explanation at http://www.searchforancestors.com/su.../m/mendoza.php and http://genealogy.about.com/library/s...me-MENDOZA.htm

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by LeoLoS
                                Comprendo! Don Íñigo López de Mendoza, marqués de Santillana (August 19, 1398 - March 25, 1458). From Ysearch I also see that you are a Mendoza. Therefore your post in the thread Sephardim: "Thus, a member of the Mendoza family was often surrounded by many conversos whose surname was also Mendoza (his secretary, his doctor, his tax collector, etc)". I hope you can back up your wish with some paper work, as his family was surrounded with so many conversos with the same name. BTW, from whom did he get that López name? Not from his father nor mother according to this info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8D%..._de_Santillana . From his wife?

                                What I don't really see is why the name Mendoza should had originated in Basque country, as it anyhow is a Spanish surname?
                                LeoLoS,

                                The Marquis of Santillana, was named Íñigo López after his relative Íñigo López de Orozco, who died murdered, to honour the latter’s memory.

                                Regarding the origin of the surname, please follow this link:
                                http://www.uam.es/personal_pdi/cienc...za/sigloxv.htm

                                It has a very simple and well established explanation.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X