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  • Non-Jewish E3b's with....

    ...up to a maximum of 3 or 4 mutation matches for Samarian or Ashkenazi...please sign in here. Just curious. Only those with absolutely no known Jewish heritage please.

    I would fit here.

  • #2
    I don't know any of my relatives. I was adopted in Toronto (which has a large Jewish community). My RAO shows a one-step Ashkenazi match from Russia and others identified as Ashkenazi with 2 or more steps.

    I asked the administrators of ftDNA point blank if I could have Jewish origins. I got this response from Leah Wark:

    I spoke with Bennett this morning regarding your sample. Your Y-DNA line is not coming from two of the most common European lineages. These two lineages are also not Jewish in origin. So, your line is similar to a group is often (but not exclusively) found in Jewish populations. However, you have near matches with individuals of non-Jewish as well as Jewish origins which means that we cannot tell. In the words of Bennett, "It's a definite maybe."

    In a later e-mail she added this information: R1b, R1a, and I are probably the most common haplogroups in Europe, although none of them are common in Jewish populations.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Marttinen
      In a later e-mail she added this information: R1b, R1a, and I are probably the most common haplogroups in Europe, although none of them are common in Jewish populations.
      This is true, but E3b-M78 is not uncommon in some European countries too. I'll quote this paper by Levy-Coffman:

      http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.pdf
      ---
      For example, although E-M78 occurs in about 30-20% of north and east African populations, it also occurs in 4.7% of French, 11.2% of Central Italians and 2.6% of Polish samples (Cruciani et al. 2004). It is particularly high in the Balkans, with some population having a frequency of 25% or more (Cruciani et al. 2004).
      ...
      However, the fact that Behar (2004b, Supplementary Material) found E-M78 to be much more prevalent among eastern versus western Ashkenazim (10 out of 12 results) argues in favor of admixture with Greek, Italian, Balkan or Eastern European populations.
      ---

      E3b-M123 has a different profile:
      ---
      In fact, the best candidate for possible E3b Israelite ancestry among Jews is E-M123. This sub-clade occurs in almost the same proportions (approximately 10-12%) among both Ashkenazim and Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004).
      ---

      Comment


      • #4
        Also, from the same source, regarding E3b-M78 among Sephardic Jews:

        The higher frequency of E-M78 among Sephardic groups may be the result of pronounced genetic drift, or more likely, gene flow from North African and Spanish populations. The likelihood of European and North African gene flow is further supported by the fact that another sub-clade, E-M81, occurs only among Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). It is also found in very high percentages among North Africans. Its frequency among the Sephardim at 5% is comparable to that seen in Spanish populations, again suggesting possible gene flow from Spanish and Berber populations into Sephardic groups.

        Comment


        • #5
          It seems that E3b1 is a pretty universal European haplotype. This link http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf (chart of gene flow among slavic people) shows that E3b1 M78 is found in the highest percentage in Kosovar Albanians and Macedonian Romani. So far none of my specific RAO's have shown up as belonging to those populations.

          On the Haplogroup results side, even though I'm E3b1, most are E3b with E3b1's and E3b3a's coming at 2 or more mutations. There are no "Berber Marker" E3b's among my list, but a good representation among the Latin countries like Spain, Portugal, Puerto Rico, and Galicia (probably Spain).

          When I do Y-search my British Isles and American (USA) matches (2 mutation differences in 12 are closest) tend to be very Anglo names like Carter, Jones and Hancock. Eastern European matches at the same distance turn up names that have obvious Jewish connections. Latin countries produce names that one would think are commonly found in those areas.

          Anyway, Rossi (who has a very similar number sequence to mine) is looking for more non-known Jewish origin E3b's. I think he's doing what I'm hanging around here for--searching for answers by doing 20-questions, narrowing possibilites before we take our leap of faith.

          I hope my information is helpful.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rossi
            ...up to a maximum of 3 or 4 mutation matches for Samarian or Ashkenazi...please sign in here. Just curious. Only those with absolutely no known Jewish heritage please.

            I would fit here.
            E3b1
            M35+ M78+ M96+ P2+ M107- M123- M136- M148- M165- M281- M34- M81-


            12 Marker Y-DNA Matches
            Exact Matches
            Haplogroup Country Comment Count
            E3b Africa - 1
            E3b Australia Greek 1
            E3b England - 1
            E3b Germany - 1
            E3b Greece - 1
            E3b Ireland - 1
            E3b Italy - 1
            E3b Lithuania - 2
            E3b Romania - 3
            E3b Russia Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Russia Ashkenazi-Levite 1
            E3b Scotland - 1
            E3b Unknown Origin - 2
            E3b1 England - 1
            E3b1 Greece - 1
            E3b1 Slovenia - 1
            One Step Mutations
            Haplogroup Country Comment Count
            E3b Australia Greek 4
            E3b Belarus Ashkenazi 2
            E3b Bohemia - 2
            E3b Brazil - 1
            E3b England - 3
            E3b Germany - 1
            E3b Italy - 3
            E3b Lithuania Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Netherlands - 1
            E3b Poland - 2
            E3b Russia - 1
            E3b Russia Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Sweden - 1
            E3b Unknown Origin - 7
            E3b Unknown Origin Ashkenazi 1
            E3b1 Germany- 1
            E3b1 Ireland - 1
            E3b1 Russia Native Siberian 1
            E3b1 Spain - 1
            E3b1 Sweden - 1
            E3b1 Unknown Origin - 3
            E3b3a Lithuania Ashkenazi 1
            E3b3a Russia - 1
            E3b3a Ukraine - 1
            E3b3a Unknown Origin - 1
            Two Step Mutations
            Haplogroup Country Comment Count
            E3b Australia Greek 2
            E3b Austria - 1
            E3b Belarus - 1
            E3b Belarus Ashkenazi 1
            E3b England - 6
            E3b Germany - 4
            E3b Greece - 3
            E3b Ireland - 2
            E3b Italy - 4
            E3b Italy Tuscany 2
            E3b Poland - 1
            E3b Puerto Rico - 1
            E3b Romania - 1
            E3b Russia - 1
            E3b Saudi Arabia - 1
            E3b Scotland - 1
            E3b Switzerland - 1
            E3b Ukraine Ashkenazi (Odessa) 1
            E3b United Kingdom - 1
            E3b Unknown Origin - 13
            E3b1 Bohemia - 1
            E3b1 Bulgaria - 1
            E3b1 Cuba -1
            E3b1 Czech Republic - 1
            E3b1 England - 2
            E3b1 France - 1
            E3b1 Germany - 4
            E3b1 Greece - 2
            E3b1 Greece Peloponissos 1
            E3b1 Hungary - 1
            E3b1 Ireland - 1
            E3b1 Italy - 2
            E3b1 Russia - 1
            E3b1 Scotland - 2
            E3b1 Sicily - 1
            E3b1 Switzerland - 1
            E3b1 Ukraine - 1
            E3b1 United Kingdom - 1
            E3b1 Unknown Origin - 10
            E3b1 Wales - 1
            E3b3a Unknown Origin - 1
            3 Step Mutations
            Haplogroup Country Comment Count
            E3b Africa -1
            E3b Australia Greek 2
            E3b Belarus Ashkenazi (Babruysk) 1
            E3b Denmark - 1
            E3b England - 9

            E3b
            France
            -
            1

            E3b Germany - 11
            E3b Germany Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Great Britain - 1
            E3b Greece - 3
            E3b Italy - 4
            E3b Lithuania Ashkenazi-Levite 1
            E3b Netherlands - 1
            E3b Norway - 1
            E3b Poland - 1
            E3b Romania - 2
            E3b Russia Ashkenazi 2
            E3b Scotland - 1
            E3b Ukraine Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Unknown Origin - 12
            E3b Uzbekistan - 1
            E3b1 England - 2
            E3b1 Germany - 3
            E3b1 Ireland - 1
            E3b1 United Kingdom- 1
            E3b1 Unknown Origin - 2
            E3b1 Wales - 1
            E3b3a England - 1
            E3b3a France - 1
            E3b3a Germany - 1
            E3b3a Russia - 1
            4 Step Mutations
            Haplogroup Country Comment Count
            E3 Germany - 1
            E3a Unknown Origin - 1
            E3b Armenia - 1
            E3b Austria - 1
            E3b Austria-Hungary Ashkenazi 2
            E3b Austria-Hungary Ashkenazi-Levite 1
            E3b Belarus Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Belarus Ashkenazi (Minsk) 1
            E3b Bohemia - 1
            E3b Czech Republic - 1
            E3b Egypt - 1
            E3b England - 3
            E3b France - 3
            E3b Germany - 3
            E3b Greece - 2
            E3b Hungary - 3
            E3b Ireland -1
            E3b Israel Samaritan 7
            E3b Italy- 4
            E3b Italy Campania 1
            E3b Italy Veneto 1
            E3b Kenya - 1
            E3b Lebanon - 1
            E3b Lithuania - 1
            E3b Lithuania Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Lithuania Ashkenazi-Levite 1
            E3b Netherlands - 1
            E3b Poland - 3
            E3b Portugal - 1
            E3b Prussia - 1
            E3b Romania - 1
            E3b Russia - 1
            E3b Russia Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Russia Ashkenazi (Kallis) 1
            E3b Sicily - 1
            E3b Switzerland - 1
            E3b Turkey - 1
            E3b Ukraine - 4
            E3b Ukraine Ashkenazi 1
            E3b Ukraine Bessarabia 1
            E3b United Kingdom - 1
            E3b Unknown Origin - 13
            E3b1 Czech Republic - 1
            E3b1 England - 1
            E3b1 Germany - 4
            E3b1 Greece - 1
            E3b1 Ireland - 1
            E3b1 Italy - 2
            E3b1 Lebanon - 1
            E3b1 Poland - 1
            E3b1 Russia - 1
            E3b1 Spain - 1
            E3b1 Switzerland - 1
            E3b1 Unknown Origin - 7
            E3b3 Russia - 1
            E3b3a Austria-Hungary - 2
            E3b3a Belarus - 1
            E3b3a Denmark - 1
            E3b3a Poland - 4
            E3b3a Romania - 1
            E3b3a Russia - 2
            E3b3a Sephardi - 1
            E3b3a Unknown Origin - 1
            H India - 1
            H Sri Lanka - 1
            O2 Indonesia - 1

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LeoLoS
              Also, from the same source, regarding E3b-M78 among Sephardic Jews:

              The higher frequency of E-M78 among Sephardic groups may be the result of pronounced genetic drift, or more likely, gene flow from North African and Spanish populations. The likelihood of European and North African gene flow is further supported by the fact that another sub-clade, E-M81, occurs only among Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). It is also found in very high percentages among North Africans. Its frequency among the Sephardim at 5% is comparable to that seen in Spanish populations, again suggesting possible gene flow from Spanish and Berber populations into Sephardic groups.

              What about the hebrews who told ezra they would not return to palistine and decided to cross the mts and migrate to europe settling in most of europe and especially western europe and eventually migrating to iceland and the usa canada and australia

              what about them they numbered in the millions and refused to remember who they were.

              now what makes sence is the people whop stayed near the mts stayed the most hebrew aka askenazis. funny thing about genes they dont go when denied. so the matches signify at some time askenazis relatives went west into europe but the matching indicate a relationship . yeah along time ago but still a relationship.

              now some of you will say this is identity ,todays aryian or yesterdays british isrealism. nothing could be furthur from the truth . I debate these people all the time they believe askenazis are not jewish except for the british isrealites.Instead some fake jews.

              look at the haplogroup i just posted and tell me i dont have that relationship and that some askenzis also match some israeli jews. some of my askenazis matches have paperwork back to israel.

              Comment


              • #8
                Unfortunately, Ellen Levy-Coffman didn't mention anything about "hebrews who told ezra they would not return to palistine and decided to cross the mts and migrate to europe" in her 22 sides long informative document; "A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND A REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE". Maybe she don't take them into account or don't consider them as important or reliable stuff for her document.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Marttinen
                  This link http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf (chart of gene flow among slavic people) shows that E3b1 M78 is found in the highest percentage in Kosovar Albanians and Macedonian Romani. So far none of my specific RAO's have shown up as belonging to those populations.
                  Very few Kosovars and Macedonian Roma can afford genetic ancestry right now.

                  Seriously, we must always remember that FTDNA's database primarily reflects:

                  a) The populations that can best afford genetic genealogy--i.e., the wealthiest countries.

                  b) The populations that are most interested in genetic genealogy--i.e., the countries composed primarily of immigrants.

                  c) The populations most likely to do business with an American company as opposed to a British company like Ethnoancestry or a German company like DNA-Fingerprint.

                  The bottom line is that FTDNA's database primarily reflects American ancestry.

                  To be fair, FTDNA's Recent Ancestral Origins database has apparently been enhanced with the results of research work in other countries--which is extremely useful, but almost certainly not complete.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here's what I have

                    This is my RAO list. My Haplotype section (which I don't show) has only one one-step mutation result and many more "Ashkenazi" under "comments." I think my list is pretty sparse compared to Jim's.

                    12 Marker Y-DNA Matches
                    Exact Matches
                    Country (Number of Entries)
                    Ukraine (478)
                    -
                    1

                    One Step Mutations
                    Country (Number of Entries)
                    Comment
                    Your Matches

                    France (1094)
                    -
                    1

                    Portugal (212)
                    -
                    1

                    Russia (1711)
                    Ashkenazi
                    1

                    Serbia (21)
                    -
                    1

                    Ukraine (478)
                    -
                    1

                    Two Step Mutations

                    Country (Number of Entries)
                    Comment
                    Your Matches

                    Croatia (57)
                    -
                    1

                    Czechoslovakia (112)
                    -
                    1

                    Denmark (298)
                    -
                    1

                    England (9001)
                    -
                    1

                    France (1094)
                    -
                    3

                    Galicia (31)
                    -
                    1

                    Germany (4041)
                    -
                    7

                    Greece (266)
                    -
                    2

                    Guatemala (14)
                    -
                    1

                    Hungary (343)
                    -
                    1

                    Ireland (4748)
                    -
                    1

                    Lithuania (327)
                    -
                    2

                    Netherlands (483)
                    -
                    1

                    Poland (992)
                    -
                    2

                    Poland (992)
                    Ashkenazi (Bialystok)
                    1

                    Puerto Rico (125)
                    -
                    1

                    Russia (1711)
                    -
                    2

                    Serbia (21)
                    -
                    1

                    Slovakia (193)
                    -
                    1

                    Spain (968)
                    -
                    1

                    Tanzania (37)
                    -
                    1

                    Turkey (89)
                    -
                    1

                    Ukraine (478)
                    -
                    1

                    United Kingdom (3036)
                    -
                    1
                    Last edited by Marttinen; 6 August 2006, 07:50 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here's the Haplotype section (without 4-step mutations)

                      E3b1
                      M35+ M78+ M96+ P2+ M107- M123- M136- M148- M165- M2- M281- M34- M81-
                      12 Marker Y-DNA Matches

                      Exact Matches

                      Haplogroup
                      Country
                      Comment
                      Count

                      E3b
                      Ukraine
                      -
                      1

                      One Step Mutations

                      Haplogroup
                      Country
                      Comment
                      Count

                      E3b
                      Russia
                      Ashkenazi
                      1


                      Two Step Mutations


                      Haplogroup
                      Country
                      Comment
                      Count

                      E3b
                      France
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Greece
                      -
                      2

                      E3b
                      Poland
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Russia
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Tanzania
                      -
                      1


                      3 Step Mutations


                      Haplogroup
                      Country
                      Comment
                      Count

                      E3b
                      Australia
                      Greek
                      1

                      E3b
                      Belarus
                      Ashkenazi
                      2

                      E3b
                      Bohemia
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      England
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Germany
                      -
                      4

                      E3b
                      Lithuania
                      Ashkenazi
                      1

                      E3b
                      Netherlands
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Poland
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Portugal
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Russia
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Russia
                      Ashkenazi
                      1

                      E3b
                      Tanzania
                      -
                      1

                      E3b
                      Unknown Origin
                      -
                      6

                      E3b
                      Unknown Origin
                      Ashkenazi
                      1

                      E3b1
                      England
                      -
                      1

                      E3b1
                      Germany
                      -
                      1

                      E3b1
                      Spain
                      -
                      1

                      E3b1
                      Sweden
                      -
                      1

                      E3b1
                      Unknown Origin
                      -
                      1

                      E3b1
                      Wales
                      -
                      1

                      E3b3a
                      France
                      -
                      1

                      E3b3a
                      Lithuania
                      Ashkenazi
                      1

                      E3b3a
                      Ukraine
                      -
                      1

                      E3b3a
                      Unknown Origin
                      -
                      1

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LeoLoS
                        Unfortunately, Ellen Levy-Coffman didn't mention anything about "hebrews who told ezra they would not return to palistine and decided to cross the mts and migrate to europe" in her 22 sides long informative document; "A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND A REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE". Maybe she don't take them into account or don't consider them as important or reliable stuff for her document.
                        since they where 10 of 13 tribes and a high percentage of the total any statement with out them would be deficient

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lgmayka
                          Very few Kosovars and Macedonian Roma can afford genetic ancestry right now.

                          Seriously, we must always remember that FTDNA's database primarily reflects:

                          a) The populations that can best afford genetic genealogy--i.e., the wealthiest countries.

                          b) The populations that are most interested in genetic genealogy--i.e., the countries composed primarily of immigrants.

                          c) The populations most likely to do business with an American company as opposed to a British company like Ethnoancestry or a German company like DNA-Fingerprint.

                          The bottom line is that FTDNA's database primarily reflects American ancestry.

                          To be fair, FTDNA's Recent Ancestral Origins database has apparently been enhanced with the results of research work in other countries--which is extremely useful, but almost certainly not complete.

                          it also contains some of spencer wells and crews testees from people exactly like you say not able to spend that cash.

                          ftdna does alot of projects besides ftdna and national geographic most of them are in ethnic origins with out a release form for personal data

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rossi
                            ...up to a maximum of 3 or 4 mutation matches for Samarian or Ashkenazi...please sign in here. Just curious. Only those with absolutely no known Jewish heritage please.

                            I would fit here.
                            OK, Rossi, here we go:

                            Two step mutations: 3 Ashkenazi men out of five people (60 %).

                            Three step mutations: 7 Samaritan persons out of 26 9/12 "near" matches (26,9 %).

                            Four step mutations: 9 Samaritans and 7 Ashkenazis out of 49 people (32,6 %).

                            Very common, I think.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jim Denning
                              since they where 10 of 13 tribes and a high percentage of the total any statement with out them would be deficient
                              Have there been any scientific researchs that could back up such a statement? Otherwise I am afraid it could be just like with the results stated in the thread "Crypto-Jews among Spanish-Americans"; "Although Spanish-Americans undoubtedly have some Jewish ancestry, they appear to have no more than do Iberians. The crypto-Jewish scenario proposed by Hordes (1993, 1996) is refuted by these results."

                              That means the statement that Jewish conversos should have mass-emigrated to Latin America and made up a lot more of the DNA in the population over there than compared to Spain is just rumours. It could be the same thing with your lost tribes.

                              Comment

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