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lgmayka · 3 August 2006, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Russ Lipton

1. What does this suggest, if anything, about possible Jewish ancestry?

2. Would you as a group (heh) feel that the Coffman article is reasonable?

3. I intend to do the deep clade test next. Does that make sense for learning more?

4. At some point, given my unknown paternal ancestry, I would like to add markers. If cost were not a primary determinant, would you recommend the 37-marker or the 67-marker test?

5. Are there additional steps I could take with Family Tree or elsewhere that might shed additional light on my background through my father?

1) The Cohen modal haplotype is a very strong indicator of Middle Eastern ancestry. With only 12 markers, you could theoretically be Palestinian Arab, or Samaritan, but you would probably agree that either of those is much less likely than Jewish ancestry.

2) I think the Coffman paper is the best summary we have on the topic.

3) The deep clade test is fine, but I think more markers is more important (if you can only afford one or the other).

4) If cost is not primary, of course go for the 67! It may also cost less if you order the entire 12-to-67 upgrade at the same time instead of piecemeal.

5) The whispers of your grandfather's "Injun blood" are much more likely a reference to his maternal side (testable as mtDNA) rather than paternal side. Unfortunately, unless you can find an appropriate relative to test that mtDNA, you're out of luck. (For example, your grandfather's sister's child, or your grandfather's sister's daughter's child.)

efgen · 3 August 2006, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Russ Lipton

5. Are there additional steps I could take with Family Tree or elsewhere that might shed additional light on my background through my father?

Russ,

You can absolutely find out more about your grandfather's family, through genealogical searches. Your first step should be to check the U.S. federal census records for 1900, 1910, 1920 and 1930, which provide data on immigration, nationality and native language for all families living in the U.S., among other things. Ancestry.com is the best place to search for this info, though it's a subscription site. If you would like to send me more details about your family (send it to me via Private Message), I would be glad to do some lookups for you and send you copies of what I find. I'm giving a computer workshop on internet-based genealogy research at a Jewish genealogy conference next weekend, so I'm very qualified to help with this

If your grandfather was indeed Jewish, his last name may have originally been Lipstein or Lif****z -- I've seen both of those names "anglicized" to Lipton. I also have both of those names in my family. I'm in the process of having my Lif****z relative tested and he's supposed to be either Levite or Cohanim (we're not sure which), so I'm looking forward to seeing if he matches the CMH.

Originally posted by Russ Lipton

... as a by the way, we also know next to nothing about my mother's mother's line. I assume she can do a test that will shed some light on that.

Actually, I can answer this one too. You have the same mtDNA as your mother, so you can have FTDNA test your mtDNA with the sample they already have from you -- no need to have your mother submit a DNA sample as well. Be aware that mtDNA doesn't give as much detailed information as Y-DNA. mtDNA mutates much more slowly than Y-DNA, so most people end up with many matches who could be very distantly related (in the thousands of years). You can test your HVR1 & HVR2, which together tend to be equated to a 12-marker Y-DNA test in resolution. The mtDNA Full Sequence test, which costs near $1000 right now, tends to be equated to a 37-marker Y-DNA test. However, by testing your mtDNA (even just HVR1), you will also find out your mtDNA haplogroup, which should give you some idea of your deep maternal ancestry.

Elise

haplogroupc · 3 August 2006, 08:41 PM

Russ Lipton,

What Igmayka said is exactly right. Just because your Y-DNA test didn't reveal Native American, doesn't mean your ancestor wasn't Native American. It just means he probably got it from his mom. He also might have gotten it from his father's female line. You should consider having your dad take the Ancestry By DNA test (www.ancestrybydna.com). Even though alot of people are skeptical about the test, I think your dad would get a high percentage of Native American if his father had alot of Native American in him.

Russ Lipton · 3 August 2006, 09:12 PM

Thank you very much for the prompt and informative responses. Against my expectations, I am finding the entire subject of DNA ancestry fascinating.

Igmayka:

I would have thought the deep clade test might have helped confirm Jewish ancestry? Are you implying that while Palestinian/Samaritan ancestry is possible, it is indeed improbable in my case? Certainly, few Palestinians (?) emigrated to the United States in the 19th century; many Jews did. Or am I misreading you? (I'm not trying to get you to assert definitely about my past; just considering the logic of your comment). While it would be best to find actual Jewish relatives, which would be wonderful, I would like to do everything I could through testing to rule it in-or-out.

Maybe a better question would be: what will the deep clade test add to my knowledge? Come to think of it, I'm not sure I know.

I had never considered the obvious possibility of my grandfather's mother's line. Remember: we don't know anyone from his line except my father; but he himself could take the maternal test.

It does seem unlikely to me that my grandfather would have been both Jewish (paternal) and Indian (maternal) given the likely time frames for his parents (b 1850 ? - d ?). Or Arab and Amerindian? Would that be historically plausible?

Elise:

My mother had speculated months ago (without knowing a shred of any of this) that my grandfather might have changed his name. Weird. I have looked for 'Leopold (his supposed first name) Lipton' without success, but I have an extraordinary story of perhaps (probably?) making contact with a half-cousin that I will share with you in email (unless others are interested; it's not a matter of confidentiality but not wanting to bore folks).

I assume from your comment that my mother's maternal results would be identical to what would happen if I took the same test suggested? Or not? I think she would enjoy doing it and I could save my idle bucks for some other test ;-). It would be one of the great cosmic jokes of all time if my mother's mother's line (also?) seemed to have a solid Jewish ancestry.

I have not seen the information about how the female test correlates to the male test marker-wise anywhere else. That is very useful.

I am thrilled that you are willing to help.

Haplogroup C:

Oddly, my father's mother (not my father's father) is actually the one who looks Indian in the few photographs we have. It is always possible my dad conflated a story to be about his father from one that was actually about his mother, though I still doubt it. My mother heard these same stories after their marriage.

It is a fact my father himself was born outside Great Falls, Montana in 1914 near a Blackfoot Indian reservation. Yet, we know that the mother's family (sister, others) lived in Minnesota, since this is where he was sent after his mother's death.

I will research the Ancestry by DNA test.

Thank you all (and others) for continuing help and I look forward to your answers if you have time. I certainly will be pursuing additional tests as well. I hope some of this will be useful to other newbies, whatever their ancestry.

lgmayka · 3 August 2006, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Russ Lipton

I would have thought the deep clade test might have helped confirm Jewish ancestry? Are you implying that while Palestinian/Samaritan ancestry is possible, it is indeed improbable in my case? Certainly, few Palestinians (?) emigrated to the United States in the 19th century; many Jews did.
...
Maybe a better question would be: what will the deep clade test add to my knowledge?
...
I had never considered the obvious possibility of my grandfather's mother's line. Remember: we don't know anyone from his line except my father; but he himself could take the maternal test.

It does seem unlikely to me that my grandfather would have been both Jewish (paternal) and Indian (maternal) given the likely time frames for his parents (b 1850 ? - d ?). Or Arab and Amerindian? Would that be historically plausible?

1) My understanding is that both J1 and J2 have traveled together, throughout the Middle East and then throughout the Diaspora. But it is certainly possible that some subclades have specific geographical or ethnic significance. So I do not mean to discourage a deepSNP test. In fact, I've ordered the deepSNP on my uncle, my parish priest, and my cousin.

I am only saying that in general, more markers are the top priority.

2) Your father could indeed take the mtDNA (maternal-line) test, but that would show your father's mother's ancestry. If the Native American heritage lies in your father's father's mother...it sounds like you have no one available to test.

3) If your grandfather was Jewish--or otherwise Middle Eastern, for that matter--and alone in America, he might indeed have found it easier to marry a Native American woman (who might see it as a way to escape near-genocide) rather than a typical Colonial (British Isles) woman, who might have religious and cultural reservations about marrying a man so 'different'.

I am simply saying that a 19th-century American marriage between a Jew and a Native American is not so improbable as to be 'out of the question'.

Russ Lipton · 4 August 2006, 12:01 AM

Igmayka ...

All excellent points. It occurred to me after posting that there is indeed no way to test for my father's maternal line - yet your point is well-taken about the possibility that a Jew could well have married an American Indian. Many thanks.

Part of the fun in this for me is the puzzle-opening piece. Perhaps I will do the subclade test first and then move on to the markers. Without doubt, I will do the markers at some near point in the hope that it may someday uncover a true match - even many years from now as databases expand greatly and the science advances.

I suppose, if I grasp one theory, that a) if my father's line truly is genetically Jewish with good continuity and that b) there is some chance Jewish DNA has seen less inter-marrying than some others (or, at least, CMH-J1; recognizing that Jewishness is religious as well as ethnic), then c) perhaps a serious match someday is not out of the question.

Lots of 'if's. I can already see why that makes this fun.

Even the possible name change is fun - there are, of course, British Lipton's but nearly all Amerians I have ever met with the name Lipton have been Jewish and did indeed have an earlier surname that had been changed. We have never had reason to believe my grandfather was a long-time Briton fro the little known (to the contrary) and, at least provisionally, I would guess that this first test reinforces that.

... and I have Elise's kind offer to pursue as well plus my mother's mother's line to pursue genetically.

vineviz · 4 August 2006, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Russ Lipton

All excellent points. It occurred to me after posting that there is indeed no way to test for my father's maternal line - yet your point is well-taken about the possibility that a Jew could well have married an American Indian. Many thanks.

Unless I've gotten confused, there IS a way to test your father's maternal line: he can take the mtDNA test.

Your mtDNA test will follow your mother's maternal line. Your father's mtDNA test will follow his maternal line. What you are missing will be DNA from your father's paternal grandmother and maternal grandfather.

But getting your dad to take a mtDNA test and an autsomal DNA test (while he still can) would seem to me to be the priority.

efgen · 4 August 2006, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Russ Lipton

My mother had speculated months ago (without knowing a shred of any of this) that my grandfather might have changed his name. Weird. I have looked for 'Leopold (his supposed first name) Lipton' without success, but I have an extraordinary story of perhaps (probably?) making contact with a half-cousin that I will share with you in email (unless others are interested; it's not a matter of confidentiality but not wanting to bore folks).

I assume from your comment that my mother's maternal results would be identical to what would happen if I took the same test suggested? Or not? I think she would enjoy doing it and I could save my idle bucks for some other test ;-). It would be one of the great cosmic jokes of all time if my mother's mother's line (also?) seemed to have a solid Jewish ancestry.

I have not seen the information about how the female test correlates to the male test marker-wise anywhere else. That is very useful.

I am thrilled that you are willing to help.

Russ,

I'm very glad to help. I sent you a Private Message asking for some specifics so that I have more names to search for -- please see the Private Messages link at the top right of the forums page.

I forgot to mention earlier, there's a new FTDNA project studying haplogroup J -- you should definitely check it out and join:

http://www.ftdna.com/public/Y-DNA_J

As for your mtDNA, yours and your mother's should be exactly the same. mtDNA is passed from a mother to all her children, so she passed her mtDNA on to you. You won't pass it on to your own children, but if you have sisters, they will also have your mother's mtDNA and will pass it on to their children. So it's up to you and your mother to decide who will test

One thing to note is that if you order the mtDNA HVR1 test, it will be less expensive ($89) since FTDNA already has your DNA sample, than if your mother orders a new kit to test herself ($129+$2 shipping). However, if you decide that your mother will order the mtDNA test, it will be slightly less expensive to order through the Genographic Project ($99+taxes+shipping) than through FTDNA ($129+$2 shipping). Your mother will also receive the Journey of Man DVD along with some other printed material if she orders through the Genographic Project (GP).

GP tests HVR1 and provides the mtDNA haplogroup. After testing through GP, you can transfer to FTDNA and order the HVR2, if you wish. FTDNA handles all DNA kits for GP, so it's a simple process to transfer from one to the other. I personally ordered my DNA kit through the GP, then transfered to FTDNA so I could upgrade to HVR2 and join an mtDNA haplogroup project.

Elise

Stevo · 4 August 2006, 07:45 AM

Regarding the Native American ("Injun Blood") legend: from what I have seen, many families in the U.S. create a "We're part Indian" story any time a person with a swarthy complexion, dark hair, and dark eyes appears in an otherwise fair-skinned, light-eyed family.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me most such legends are without foundation.

In Russ' grandfather's case, the creation of such a story could have been used by his wife's family to hide the fact that he was Jewish, a fact that may not have been agreeable to them.

My guess is that Russ isn't Native American at all and neither was his grandfather.

Russ Lipton · 4 August 2006, 08:27 AM

Stevo,

On balance, I would tend to agree with you, especially given the story as it was for decades (about my grandfather himself) and the obvious discrepancy with my Y-DNA test.

Since my father is the only known relative, he cannot be tested with respect to any possibility my grandfather himself was Indian through his (grandfather's) mother.

I suppose it's a tossup between anti-Semitism and anti-Amerindian but for many Americans, the latter has always been considerably more 'romantic' than the former. It could also explain why contact was cut off almost from the time my father was sent to live with his mother's relatives.

Russ Lipton · 4 August 2006, 10:47 AM

vineviz -

Yes, I am going to encourage my father to take the mtDNA test. Could you remind me what the autosomal test is? Is this the Ancestry By DNA test that was recommended?

At a minimum, since we also know almost nothing about his mother's family, this will be interesting in its own right to him and my children. Being 91, we can't wait forever to consider this.

As a curiosity, the one side of our family we know about in wonderful detail is my mother's father's side. They have lived in Zurich, Switzerland for 800 years, centuries in one house. We have a book prepared in early 1900s that contains detailed records of each member. I can also look at portraits of direct ancestors from the 15th century and later. They were scary dudes.

Elise -

Great point about the maternal test. Thanks for pointer to J group study; will join for sure. Private email to you today.

Again, many thanks to all so far. My wife is quite excited about her DNA birthday present to me and my children (not to mention my parents) are somewhat agog so far.

Russ Lipton · 4 August 2006, 02:26 PM

I do not want to say too much at this point but just this:

I called my mother today about an older brother of my father (Joseph Lipton) who Elise found in the 1920 census this morning (Elise - thank you). I had never heard him named at any point in my life.

When I called my parents, my mother told me before I mentioned Joseph Lipton that she had learned (?) some things about my lineage after my first call yesterday and thought it best that she email me about it rather than talk on the phone.

Of course, she knew of Joseph Lipton though it wasn't clear how much she knew about him.

Um. Er. Hm. Gak.

Russ Lipton · 5 August 2006, 03:54 PM

Saturday, August 5, noon - a brief update:

The last few days have been amazing. Almost every few hours, I learn something new about my past and background. While I still can't confirm definitively from genealogy that my father's line was indeed Jewish, it appears so genealogically as well as genetically. Again, I cannot say for sure whether my grandfather was religiously Jewish either in Jewish or the states. It is suspiciouis that my father's (maternal) grandparents changed his name from Lipke to Lipton as soon as he arrived from my father. And changed the name of his brother Joseph Lipke ... a brother of which I had never heard, even once.

In any case, my 'real' name (that is, my father's real name) was Delbert Lipke (not Delbert Lipton) and my grandfather's name (about whom we knew almost nothing, the supposed 'Leo Lipton') was Ammandus Leo Lipke.

Ammandus emigrated from Germany in 1888 and married my grandmother in Ironwood, Michigan in 1903 - a wilderness Upper Peninsula copper mining town which, according to Michigan historical records, had "many" resident Jews and a large synagogue nearby. In 1912, a Lipke was running a business there.

I suspect I have (or did have) Lipke relatives in Colorado. I can also now begin a hunt for Lipke relatives (that were) in Germany.

.... and I will take the 37-marker test pronto.

Thank you Elise ... and Bonnie, others with whom I have been corresponding.

tomcat · 5 August 2006, 04:35 PM

If you get samples from your mother and father you can submit them to FTDNA for y- and mt-DNA tests, and then have FTDNA give the extracted DNA to their new partner DNA-Fingerprint for DNA-F's Autosomal Panel One test. Panel One results can be forwarded to DNATribes for their ancestry analysis. Last prices I know of from DNA-F - $62 for Panel One on already extracted DNA and $100 from DNAT for analysis. This is in addition to the costs of tests you choose to order from FTDNA.

BY ALL MEANS - get samples from both parents NOW.

Tom

see - www.dna-fingerprint.com - www.dnatribes.com

You will get a lot more mileage out of DNATribes/autosomal STR results than from the more expensive Ancestry by DNA SNP analysis.

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