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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by Russ Lipton
    I would have thought the deep clade test might have helped confirm Jewish ancestry? Are you implying that while Palestinian/Samaritan ancestry is possible, it is indeed improbable in my case? Certainly, few Palestinians (?) emigrated to the United States in the 19th century; many Jews did.
    ...
    Maybe a better question would be: what will the deep clade test add to my knowledge?
    ...
    I had never considered the obvious possibility of my grandfather's mother's line. Remember: we don't know anyone from his line except my father; but he himself could take the maternal test.

    It does seem unlikely to me that my grandfather would have been both Jewish (paternal) and Indian (maternal) given the likely time frames for his parents (b 1850 ? - d ?). Or Arab and Amerindian? Would that be historically plausible?
    1) My understanding is that both J1 and J2 have traveled together, throughout the Middle East and then throughout the Diaspora. But it is certainly possible that some subclades have specific geographical or ethnic significance. So I do not mean to discourage a deepSNP test. In fact, I've ordered the deepSNP on my uncle, my parish priest, and my cousin. I am only saying that in general, more markers are the top priority.

    2) Your father could indeed take the mtDNA (maternal-line) test, but that would show your father's mother's ancestry. If the Native American heritage lies in your father's father's mother...it sounds like you have no one available to test.

    3) If your grandfather was Jewish--or otherwise Middle Eastern, for that matter--and alone in America, he might indeed have found it easier to marry a Native American woman (who might see it as a way to escape near-genocide) rather than a typical Colonial (British Isles) woman, who might have religious and cultural reservations about marrying a man so 'different'.

    I am simply saying that a 19th-century American marriage between a Jew and a Native American is not so improbable as to be 'out of the question'.

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  • Russ Lipton
    replied
    Thank you very much for the prompt and informative responses. Against my expectations, I am finding the entire subject of DNA ancestry fascinating.

    Igmayka:

    I would have thought the deep clade test might have helped confirm Jewish ancestry? Are you implying that while Palestinian/Samaritan ancestry is possible, it is indeed improbable in my case? Certainly, few Palestinians (?) emigrated to the United States in the 19th century; many Jews did. Or am I misreading you? (I'm not trying to get you to assert definitely about my past; just considering the logic of your comment). While it would be best to find actual Jewish relatives, which would be wonderful, I would like to do everything I could through testing to rule it in-or-out.

    Maybe a better question would be: what will the deep clade test add to my knowledge? Come to think of it, I'm not sure I know.

    I had never considered the obvious possibility of my grandfather's mother's line. Remember: we don't know anyone from his line except my father; but he himself could take the maternal test.

    It does seem unlikely to me that my grandfather would have been both Jewish (paternal) and Indian (maternal) given the likely time frames for his parents (b 1850 ? - d ?). Or Arab and Amerindian? Would that be historically plausible?

    Elise:

    My mother had speculated months ago (without knowing a shred of any of this) that my grandfather might have changed his name. Weird. I have looked for 'Leopold (his supposed first name) Lipton' without success, but I have an extraordinary story of perhaps (probably?) making contact with a half-cousin that I will share with you in email (unless others are interested; it's not a matter of confidentiality but not wanting to bore folks).

    I assume from your comment that my mother's maternal results would be identical to what would happen if I took the same test suggested? Or not? I think she would enjoy doing it and I could save my idle bucks for some other test ;-). It would be one of the great cosmic jokes of all time if my mother's mother's line (also?) seemed to have a solid Jewish ancestry.

    I have not seen the information about how the female test correlates to the male test marker-wise anywhere else. That is very useful.

    I am thrilled that you are willing to help.

    Haplogroup C:

    Oddly, my father's mother (not my father's father) is actually the one who looks Indian in the few photographs we have. It is always possible my dad conflated a story to be about his father from one that was actually about his mother, though I still doubt it. My mother heard these same stories after their marriage.

    It is a fact my father himself was born outside Great Falls, Montana in 1914 near a Blackfoot Indian reservation. Yet, we know that the mother's family (sister, others) lived in Minnesota, since this is where he was sent after his mother's death.

    I will research the Ancestry by DNA test.

    Thank you all (and others) for continuing help and I look forward to your answers if you have time. I certainly will be pursuing additional tests as well. I hope some of this will be useful to other newbies, whatever their ancestry.
    Last edited by Russ Lipton; 3 August 2006, 08:20 PM.

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  • haplogroupc
    replied
    Russ Lipton,

    What Igmayka said is exactly right. Just because your Y-DNA test didn't reveal Native American, doesn't mean your ancestor wasn't Native American. It just means he probably got it from his mom. He also might have gotten it from his father's female line. You should consider having your dad take the Ancestry By DNA test (www.ancestrybydna.com). Even though alot of people are skeptical about the test, I think your dad would get a high percentage of Native American if his father had alot of Native American in him.

    Leave a comment:


  • efgen
    replied
    Originally posted by Russ Lipton
    5. Are there additional steps I could take with Family Tree or elsewhere that might shed additional light on my background through my father?
    Russ,

    You can absolutely find out more about your grandfather's family, through genealogical searches. Your first step should be to check the U.S. federal census records for 1900, 1910, 1920 and 1930, which provide data on immigration, nationality and native language for all families living in the U.S., among other things. Ancestry.com is the best place to search for this info, though it's a subscription site. If you would like to send me more details about your family (send it to me via Private Message), I would be glad to do some lookups for you and send you copies of what I find. I'm giving a computer workshop on internet-based genealogy research at a Jewish genealogy conference next weekend, so I'm very qualified to help with this

    If your grandfather was indeed Jewish, his last name may have originally been Lipstein or Lif****z -- I've seen both of those names "anglicized" to Lipton. I also have both of those names in my family. I'm in the process of having my Lif****z relative tested and he's supposed to be either Levite or Cohanim (we're not sure which), so I'm looking forward to seeing if he matches the CMH.

    Originally posted by Russ Lipton
    ... as a by the way, we also know next to nothing about my mother's mother's line. I assume she can do a test that will shed some light on that.
    Actually, I can answer this one too. You have the same mtDNA as your mother, so you can have FTDNA test your mtDNA with the sample they already have from you -- no need to have your mother submit a DNA sample as well. Be aware that mtDNA doesn't give as much detailed information as Y-DNA. mtDNA mutates much more slowly than Y-DNA, so most people end up with many matches who could be very distantly related (in the thousands of years). You can test your HVR1 & HVR2, which together tend to be equated to a 12-marker Y-DNA test in resolution. The mtDNA Full Sequence test, which costs near $1000 right now, tends to be equated to a 37-marker Y-DNA test. However, by testing your mtDNA (even just HVR1), you will also find out your mtDNA haplogroup, which should give you some idea of your deep maternal ancestry.

    Elise
    Last edited by efgen; 3 August 2006, 07:50 PM.

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by Russ Lipton
    1. What does this suggest, if anything, about possible Jewish ancestry?

    2. Would you as a group (heh) feel that the Coffman article is reasonable?

    3. I intend to do the deep clade test next. Does that make sense for learning more?

    4. At some point, given my unknown paternal ancestry, I would like to add markers. If cost were not a primary determinant, would you recommend the 37-marker or the 67-marker test?

    5. Are there additional steps I could take with Family Tree or elsewhere that might shed additional light on my background through my father?
    1) The Cohen modal haplotype is a very strong indicator of Middle Eastern ancestry. With only 12 markers, you could theoretically be Palestinian Arab, or Samaritan, but you would probably agree that either of those is much less likely than Jewish ancestry.

    2) I think the Coffman paper is the best summary we have on the topic.

    3) The deep clade test is fine, but I think more markers is more important (if you can only afford one or the other).

    4) If cost is not primary, of course go for the 67! It may also cost less if you order the entire 12-to-67 upgrade at the same time instead of piecemeal.

    5) The whispers of your grandfather's "Injun blood" are much more likely a reference to his maternal side (testable as mtDNA) rather than paternal side. Unfortunately, unless you can find an appropriate relative to test that mtDNA, you're out of luck. (For example, your grandfather's sister's child, or your grandfather's sister's daughter's child.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Russ Lipton
    started a topic Beginner with CMH and J1 questions

    Beginner with CMH and J1 questions

    Not to bore you, the barest bones of my paternal history - unknown .

    Okay: my father's mother died in the flu epidemic of 1918. His father sent him to her family. They cut off ties with my grandfather. Though they said almost nothing about my father's father, they told my dad that his father was bad and had a lot of Injun blood. My dad was four in 1918 and has no memories of him. Naturally, I assumed (hoped) my YDNA test would show Native American through my father's line.

    My YDNA test shows:

    1. Zero Native American. (I spoke with my father - 91 - today about the test; he was flabbergasted.)

    2. CMH.

    3. J1 Haploid group.

    Eight exact-match markers with J1. One-step mutation markers (6 J, 33 J1, 9 J2, 4 J2f). Two-step mutation markers (6J, 20 J1, 34 J2, 8 J2F, 2 J2F1), Three-step mutation markers (22 J, 32 J1, 56 J2, 8 J2f), Four-step mutation markers (17 I, 5 I1a, 1 I1a1, 1 I1b, 20 J, 1 J*, 36 J1, 97 J2, 7 J2f, 5 J2f1).

    17 exact matches with actual men from the FTDNA database. Three with Cohen surnames (I know that doesn't mean anything but it was fun). At least eight more with obviously Jewish surnames; several more probables. I know not all of these matches are necessarily J1 (I would guess 8 are as per the exact-match markers in the paragraph above) nor are they meaningful with respect to common ancestors in any time frame that matters to me.

    I have five questions:

    1. What does this suggest, if anything, about possible Jewish ancestry?

    2. Would you as a group (heh) feel that the Coffman article is reasonable?
    (http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm). If I understand it, this would suggest a significant correlation between my profile and Jewish ancestry.

    3. I intend to do the deep clade test next. Does that make sense for learning more?

    4. At some point, given my unknown paternal ancestry, I would like to add markers. If cost were not a primary determinant, would you recommend the 37-marker or the 67-marker test?

    5. Are there additional steps I could take with Family Tree or elsewhere that might shed additional light on my background through my father?

    Even answering one of these questions will be much appreciated.

    Whether or not I have a Jewish Y-chromosome ancestry, I can tell some truly hilarious and decidedly odd stories about my many life relationships with Jews and their constant insistence that OF COURSE you (me) are actually Jewish; you just don't know you are. Non-Jews too always assume the same. And while I look completely Jewish, what makes the stories funny besides the stubborn insistence of Jews on my 'heritage', is other aspects than looks. All of which, I know, means precisely nothing.

    Anyway, though I love the Jewish people, I don't have some stake in this one way or the other. I'm mainly blown away at the moment that I don't seem to be Native American!

    ... as a by the way, we also know next to nothing about my mother's mother's line. I assume she can do a test that will shed some light on that.
    Last edited by Russ Lipton; 3 August 2006, 06:39 PM.
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