Beginner with CMH and J1 questions

[tomcat]

Russ, second Tomcat's suggestion about an autosomal test. Autosomal tests provide information that gives a more comprehensive picture of one's genetic background than just Ydna and Mtdna. At this point few autosomal databases have many Jewish participants but Ftdna's expansion into this area may improve the situation. ...

The degree of definition in DNATribes' Continental analysis is already superior to DNAPrint's Euro 1.0 - the follow-on test to Ancestry by DNA 2.5. And while it is true that DNATribes will not yield percentage estimates of admixture of four "generic" ancestries, as ABDNA 2.5 does, the matches DNATribes yields are to actual populations.

Furthermore, the markers employed are widely used in forensic applications and can be researched in other, public databases (see - www.dna-fingerprint.com - choose Links from menu in left column, when page opens choose External Links and try the five links to STR databases - RCMP, NIST, ENFSI, ALFRED, and Dusseldorf. In addition, there is an example of of STR-based analysis by Thomas Krahn on the DNA-F site).

FTDNA customers can now access all of this through FTDNA following FTDNA's purchase of DNA-F. (DNATribes is a separate company offering an
analysis of autosomal STR results via proprietary statistical methods).

Tom

[lgmayka]

I have been in correspondence with Jeffrey Schweitzer who has implied (if I get him) that the European derivation may not be significant since many Jews did not take surnames at all until the late 18th century and didn't hesitate to modify them. In other words, while it is clear that my grandfather was comfortable with the name Lipke (unlike my father's maternal grandparents), he (or his family) may have changed TO Lipke from something else; either in Europe or the states. His 1930 census record does say that he believed his own parents to both have been BORN in Germany as well as himself.

In the Polish-Lithuanian Republic, in which 60-80% of the world's Jews resided during the Renaissance, the Jewish community was largely self-governing and chose to continue using its traditional patronymics (e.g., 'David ben Yitzhak'):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Jewish_usage

Only in the late 18th century, when the Russian, Prussian/German, and Austrian Empires occupied the Republic did those empires force Jews to choose permanent surnames. Thus, Jewish surnames originating in the Russian Empire will 'look' Russian; Jewish surnames originating in the Prussian/German and Austrian Empires will 'look' German.

That brings up an important point. Although census and immigration records may show Germany as your grandfather's origin, either he or his grandparents may actually come from the German-occupied part of the Polish-Lithuanian Republic (what would now be Poland or Lithuania).

[Ithamar4]

Avotaynu

Hello Russ Lipton,

I'm finding your personal story fascinating. I hope more things turn up for you.
Out of curiosity I checked your surname, "Lipke" at an excellent website where people can find links to Jewish surnames, as to their historical locations and sometimes family histories. I did see your surname there with plenty of links.

Just link on below, perhaps you might find something:

http://www.avotaynu.com/csi/csi-home.html

Take care

[Russ Lipton]

Josh W --

Again, thanks, more education.

I have been in correspondence with Jeffrey Schweitzer who has implied (if I get him) that the European derivation may not be significant since many Jews did not take surnames at all until the late 18th century and didn't hesitate to modify them. In other words, while it is clear that my grandfather was comfortable with the name Lipke (unlike my father's maternal grandparents), he (or his family) may have changed TO Lipke from something else; either in Europe or the states. His 1930 census record does say that he believed his own parents to both have been BORN in Germany as well as himself.

In any case thanks to one possibly accurate piece of information my father had from his early childhood (that his father remarried in Denver and had children), I believe I am on the cusp of identifying three of my grandfather's children there - and other descendants later. One might think that speaking with THEM (any of them) will clear up many, many mysteries about this branch of the 'Lipke' family.

I am simply stunned with how quickly this is moving, considering that people take decades to find relatives. Of course, in a sense, it has been decades ... and my father is 91. At least one of the possible half-siblings does not have a death certificate ...

[josh w.]

Russ, second Tomcat's suggestion about an autosomal test. Autosomal tests provide information that gives a more comprehensive picture of one's genetic background than just Ydna and Mtdna. At this point few autosomal databases have many Jewish participants but Ftdna's expansion into this area may improve the situation.
Your grandfather's name could be German rather than Jewish, however the frequency of haplogroup J is not very high in Germany. By the way, the given name Lepke means "little Louis" in Yiddish (from Leib or Lev).

[Russ Lipton]

Tomcat -

We also know now that my father's maternal grandfather (John Thompson) emigrated to Michigan from Denmark in 1876. His wife (Harriet ___) was born in Wisconsin. It is possible that she was of Indian descent but I doubt it strongly for other reasons not worth going into here. I think the Indian story was conflated by my father due to infancy spent in Montana before his parents (Annandus Lipke/Miranda Thompson Lipke) moved to Colorado.

That said, I am working on them; not sure they're up for it. If not, I can do the mt-DNA test for my mother's side and intend to do so.

[tomcat]

If you get samples from your mother and father you can submit them to FTDNA for y- and mt-DNA tests, and then have FTDNA give the extracted DNA to their new partner DNA-Fingerprint for DNA-F's Autosomal Panel One test. Panel One results can be forwarded to DNATribes for their ancestry analysis. Last prices I know of from DNA-F - $62 for Panel One on already extracted DNA and $100 from DNAT for analysis. This is in addition to the costs of tests you choose to order from FTDNA.

BY ALL MEANS - get samples from both parents NOW.

Tom

see - www.dna-fingerprint.com - www.dnatribes.com

You will get a lot more mileage out of DNATribes/autosomal STR results than from the more expensive Ancestry by DNA SNP analysis.

[Russ Lipton]

Saturday, August 5, noon - a brief update:

The last few days have been amazing. Almost every few hours, I learn something new about my past and background. While I still can't confirm definitively from genealogy that my father's line was indeed Jewish, it appears so genealogically as well as genetically. Again, I cannot say for sure whether my grandfather was religiously Jewish either in Jewish or the states. It is suspiciouis that my father's (maternal) grandparents changed his name from Lipke to Lipton as soon as he arrived from my father. And changed the name of his brother Joseph Lipke ... a brother of which I had never heard, even once.

In any case, my 'real' name (that is, my father's real name) was Delbert Lipke (not Delbert Lipton) and my grandfather's name (about whom we knew almost nothing, the supposed 'Leo Lipton') was Ammandus Leo Lipke.

Ammandus emigrated from Germany in 1888 and married my grandmother in Ironwood, Michigan in 1903 - a wilderness Upper Peninsula copper mining town which, according to Michigan historical records, had "many" resident Jews and a large synagogue nearby. In 1912, a Lipke was running a business there.

I suspect I have (or did have) Lipke relatives in Colorado. I can also now begin a hunt for Lipke relatives (that were) in Germany.

.... and I will take the 37-marker test pronto.

Thank you Elise ... and Bonnie, others with whom I have been corresponding.

[Russ Lipton]

I do not want to say too much at this point but just this:

I called my mother today about an older brother of my father (Joseph Lipton) who Elise found in the 1920 census this morning (Elise - thank you). I had never heard him named at any point in my life.

When I called my parents, my mother told me before I mentioned Joseph Lipton that she had learned (?) some things about my lineage after my first call yesterday and thought it best that she email me about it rather than talk on the phone.

Of course, she knew of Joseph Lipton though it wasn't clear how much she knew about him.

Um. Er. Hm. Gak.

[Russ Lipton]

vineviz -

Yes, I am going to encourage my father to take the mtDNA test. Could you remind me what the autosomal test is? Is this the Ancestry By DNA test that was recommended?

At a minimum, since we also know almost nothing about his mother's family, this will be interesting in its own right to him and my children. Being 91, we can't wait forever to consider this.

As a curiosity, the one side of our family we know about in wonderful detail is my mother's father's side. They have lived in Zurich, Switzerland for 800 years, centuries in one house. We have a book prepared in early 1900s that contains detailed records of each member. I can also look at portraits of direct ancestors from the 15th century and later. They were scary dudes.

Elise -

Great point about the maternal test. Thanks for pointer to J group study; will join for sure. Private email to you today.

Again, many thanks to all so far. My wife is quite excited about her DNA birthday present to me and my children (not to mention my parents) are somewhat agog so far.

[Russ Lipton]

Stevo,

On balance, I would tend to agree with you, especially given the story as it was for decades (about my grandfather himself) and the obvious discrepancy with my Y-DNA test.

Since my father is the only known relative, he cannot be tested with respect to any possibility my grandfather himself was Indian through his (grandfather's) mother.

I suppose it's a tossup between anti-Semitism and anti-Amerindian but for many Americans, the latter has always been considerably more 'romantic' than the former. It could also explain why contact was cut off almost from the time my father was sent to live with his mother's relatives.

[Stevo]

Regarding the Native American ("Injun Blood") legend: from what I have seen, many families in the U.S. create a "We're part Indian" story any time a person with a swarthy complexion, dark hair, and dark eyes appears in an otherwise fair-skinned, light-eyed family.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me most such legends are without foundation.

In Russ' grandfather's case, the creation of such a story could have been used by his wife's family to hide the fact that he was Jewish, a fact that may not have been agreeable to them.

My guess is that Russ isn't Native American at all and neither was his grandfather.

[efgen]

My mother had speculated months ago (without knowing a shred of any of this) that my grandfather might have changed his name. Weird. I have looked for 'Leopold (his supposed first name) Lipton' without success, but I have an extraordinary story of perhaps (probably?) making contact with a half-cousin that I will share with you in email (unless others are interested; it's not a matter of confidentiality but not wanting to bore folks).

I assume from your comment that my mother's maternal results would be identical to what would happen if I took the same test suggested? Or not? I think she would enjoy doing it and I could save my idle bucks for some other test ;-). It would be one of the great cosmic jokes of all time if my mother's mother's line (also?) seemed to have a solid Jewish ancestry.

I have not seen the information about how the female test correlates to the male test marker-wise anywhere else. That is very useful.

I am thrilled that you are willing to help.

Russ,

I'm very glad to help. I sent you a Private Message asking for some specifics so that I have more names to search for -- please see the Private Messages link at the top right of the forums page.

I forgot to mention earlier, there's a new FTDNA project studying haplogroup J -- you should definitely check it out and join:

http://www.ftdna.com/public/Y-DNA_J

As for your mtDNA, yours and your mother's should be exactly the same. mtDNA is passed from a mother to all her children, so she passed her mtDNA on to you. You won't pass it on to your own children, but if you have sisters, they will also have your mother's mtDNA and will pass it on to their children. So it's up to you and your mother to decide who will test

One thing to note is that if you order the mtDNA HVR1 test, it will be less expensive ($89) since FTDNA already has your DNA sample, than if your mother orders a new kit to test herself ($129+$2 shipping). However, if you decide that your mother will order the mtDNA test, it will be slightly less expensive to order through the Genographic Project ($99+taxes+shipping) than through FTDNA ($129+$2 shipping). Your mother will also receive the Journey of Man DVD along with some other printed material if she orders through the Genographic Project (GP).

GP tests HVR1 and provides the mtDNA haplogroup. After testing through GP, you can transfer to FTDNA and order the HVR2, if you wish. FTDNA handles all DNA kits for GP, so it's a simple process to transfer from one to the other. I personally ordered my DNA kit through the GP, then transfered to FTDNA so I could upgrade to HVR2 and join an mtDNA haplogroup project.

Elise

[vineviz]

All excellent points. It occurred to me after posting that there is indeed no way to test for my father's maternal line - yet your point is well-taken about the possibility that a Jew could well have married an American Indian. Many thanks.

Unless I've gotten confused, there IS a way to test your father's maternal line: he can take the mtDNA test.

Your mtDNA test will follow your mother's maternal line. Your father's mtDNA test will follow his maternal line. What you are missing will be DNA from your father's paternal grandmother and maternal grandfather.

But getting your dad to take a mtDNA test and an autsomal DNA test (while he still can) would seem to me to be the priority.

[Russ Lipton]

Igmayka ...

All excellent points. It occurred to me after posting that there is indeed no way to test for my father's maternal line - yet your point is well-taken about the possibility that a Jew could well have married an American Indian. Many thanks.

Part of the fun in this for me is the puzzle-opening piece. Perhaps I will do the subclade test first and then move on to the markers. Without doubt, I will do the markers at some near point in the hope that it may someday uncover a true match - even many years from now as databases expand greatly and the science advances.

I suppose, if I grasp one theory, that a) if my father's line truly is genetically Jewish with good continuity and that b) there is some chance Jewish DNA has seen less inter-marrying than some others (or, at least, CMH-J1; recognizing that Jewishness is religious as well as ethnic), then c) perhaps a serious match someday is not out of the question.

Lots of 'if's. I can already see why that makes this fun.

Even the possible name change is fun - there are, of course, British Lipton's but nearly all Amerians I have ever met with the name Lipton have been Jewish and did indeed have an earlier surname that had been changed. We have never had reason to believe my grandfather was a long-time Briton fro the little known (to the contrary) and, at least provisionally, I would guess that this first test reinforces that.

... and I have Elise's kind offer to pursue as well plus my mother's mother's line to pursue genetically.