Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Beginner with CMH and J1 questions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Dumb question #117 but remember that six days ago, I was living in blissful ignorance of DNA and genealogy:

    Can my or my father/mother's DNA be borrowed from FT for other tests by other companies? My immediate assumption is - of course not. But that might affect how soon I make sure to have such tests done for my father, at least.

    Please advise.

    Comment


    • #32
      I know that DNA-Fingerprint has procedures for transferring samples, chain-of-custody, etc. I suppose FTDNA does as well. You ought write them.

      And you ought also write the lab to which you wish samples sent. Some labs do insist on original samples and the use of their extraction procedures.

      As per another Link in his thread, the only issue in swapping samples from DNA-F And FTDNA going forward will be "paper work".

      Tom

      Comment


      • #33
        Sorry, confused the threads - here a cut-and-paste from "X-STR and Genealogy" on this forum concerning FTDN and DNA-F sharing of samples etc.

        "This new FAQ on DNA-FP's website should help answer some of these questions":

        http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modu...aq=yes&id_cat=1

        Comment


        • #34
          tomcat - many thanks.

          By the way, I have now read the letters in question. Not only do I believe my father was adopted, but I am fairly confident I have located the person in Montana who placed him with his adopted Lipke parents - who turn out to have been living in Montana during the time period ...

          Though we may never know, the letters do contain street addresses, a few names, a process of going forward with notarizations and such, etc. Great Falls, Montana was a relatively sophisticated place and Montana was keeping decent records. In addition, they brought my father back to Colorado (their long-time home) and probably used the records obtained in Colorado to record him in Denver.

          I am moving forward on several genealogical fronts as well as more DNA testing. I will not pester the forum with personal details on a regular basis, but I may return to this thread as needed with DNA-related questions and, in that context, discoveries we make over the next couple of months about DNA and my father's paternal and maternal roots. Heck, we are going to learn something about my mother's as well.

          Comment


          • #35
            I hope you will return often, Russ. Yours is probably the most fascinating story I've seen here and this one of the most interesting threads.

            I also hope you are blessed by finding out all you want to know.

            Comment


            • #36
              Stevo -

              Thank you for your kind words. I admit to my amazement this is creating a, shall we say, understandable interest on my part in DNA testing. Heck, I haven't even had a moment to email the 19 DNA perfect matches ... all those Cohens, Abrams', etc I'm kidding totally, but watch it turn out that one of them has a family with a known descemdant who ended up in Montana in 1914.

              I do intend to provide a link to a collected set of facts and ongoing genealogy questions when I can get my act (brain) together. Honestly, many (not all) of the discoveries in both their sequence and detail are nearly as surprising as the overall narrative. That way, folks who are interested can check that occasionally. Even if we learn nothing more genealogically, I am humbled by realizing that many adoptees (esp. 90 years ago) learn (and can learn) nothing about their actual families.

              That said, my dad was quite shaken by my just-completed 'demonstration' that he was truly adopted - brave about going forward but shaken. His entire life narrative has, after all, collapsed. I tried my best to reconnect him with the fact that he was WANTED by the Lipkes and was still, after all, their son. Adopted sons are still sons. Knowing his memory problems, I am afraid he will focus on the 'then who were my parents?' part. I hope I can find out.

              If I turn out in some way in the cosmic scheme of things to *actually* be a 'Cohen' through finding real relatives with some 67-gene match in 2015 and (joking again) the grandson of an Indian daughter of a Blackfoot chief, I will simply fall over.

              I mean, if you knew me personally, you would know how utterly ordinary I and my life have been ...

              So, not away, but I'll try to (continue to) keep it on a need to know/share basis - with link.

              Comment


              • #37
                Russ, good luck in your continuing search. I bet that there will be yet more surprises down the road.
                Josh

                Comment


                • #38
                  Russ,

                  Please continue to post here. I want to know how this shakes-out. Everyone does. The story of this/your process is absolutely germane to this forum.

                  Tom

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    My maternal DNA results

                    He's baaaack

                    I am awaiting results on the following tests:
                    My Y-DNA 37-marker upgrade (approx. 9/27)
                    My father's MT-DNA plus test (approx 10/15)
                    My half-uncle's Y-DNA 12-marker test (approx 10/22)

                    (I am very grateful my just-discovered half-uncle was willing; this may help establish whether my father was adopted as the also just-discovered letters about his infancy strongly suggest).

                    I will furnish an update on the search for my father's birth parents in another post later today. Meanwhile, I would appreciate a bit of help on my mother's MT-DNA plus results (tested on me); received today.

                    Haplotype: T5

                    Here:
                    HVR1 differences: 16126C, 16153A, 16294T, 16519C.
                    HVR2 differences: 41T, 73G, 150T, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C

                    My HVR1 matches:
                    England 2
                    Germany 6
                    Hungary 1
                    Ireland 2
                    Malta 1
                    Poland 2
                    Russia 4
                    Scotland 1
                    Slovenia 1
                    Spain 1
                    Ukraine 1 (Ashkenazi)
                    UK 1
                    Yugoslavia 1
                    28 persons are listed by name for low-resolution matches.

                    HVR2 matches:
                    none

                    What I get from this (Family Tree verbiage) is that my matrilineal line originated from the Middle East yea many moons ago and were probably part of Neolithic migrations into Europe. As to what we know, my great-grandmother was either Austrian or Polish. My 81-year old mother can't remember her grandmother's maiden name but I may be able to find it when I visit my parents in mid-October. My family is just a fount of knowledge on their origins. Not.

                    I did not expect this test to show anything relating to Jewishness. However, because I have had Y-Jewishness on my mind lately (hmm, I wonder why), these are my hesitant conclusions to date:

                    1. The K haplotype is the one most positively correlated with Jewish matrilineal descent.

                    2. T5 is more compatible with genetic Jewish (e.g., Israel-specific) descent than some haplotypes might be, but only marginally so.

                    Correct? What nuances am I missing?

                    (I am cognizant of the general differences between Y-DNA and MT-DNA relative to origins, both with precision and dating).

                    These are a couple of questions:

                    1. Is it useful to look into the specific mutations and how would I best do that?

                    2. Broadly, what is the meaning of the HVR1 matches and the lack of HVR2 matches, if any, at this early stage in genetic testing?

                    I am reading 'Trace Your Roots With DNA' as a general introduction. What are the best current sources for learning more about the MT-DNA state-of-the-art?

                    As always, thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Russ Lipton
                      I will furnish an update on the search for my father's birth parents in another post later today. Meanwhile, I would appreciate a bit of help on my mother's MT-DNA plus results (tested on me); received today.

                      Haplotype: T5

                      Here:
                      HVR1 differences: 16126C, 16153A, 16294T, 16519C.
                      HVR2 differences: 41T, 73G, 150T, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C

                      My HVR1 matches:
                      England 2
                      Germany 6
                      Hungary 1
                      Ireland 2
                      Malta 1
                      Poland 2
                      Russia 4
                      Scotland 1
                      Slovenia 1
                      Spain 1
                      Ukraine 1 (Ashkenazi)
                      UK 1
                      Yugoslavia 1
                      28 persons are listed by name for low-resolution matches.

                      HVR2 matches:
                      none

                      What I get from this (Family Tree verbiage) is that my matrilineal line originated from the Middle East yea many moons ago and were probably part of Neolithic migrations into Europe. As to what we know, my great-grandmother was either Austrian or Polish. My 81-year old mother can't remember her grandmother's maiden name but I may be able to find it when I visit my parents in mid-October. My family is just a fount of knowledge on their origins. Not.

                      I did not expect this test to show anything relating to Jewishness. However, because I have had Y-Jewishness on my mind lately (hmm, I wonder why), these are my hesitant conclusions to date:

                      1. The K haplotype is the one most positively correlated with Jewish matrilineal descent.

                      2. T5 is more compatible with genetic Jewish (e.g., Israel-specific) descent than some haplotypes might be, but only marginally so.
                      Russ,

                      Welcome back. It's great to hear that you're continuing to discover more about your ancestry, even if it's in bits and pieces and in a general way.

                      The specific reason I'm writing today is to let you know we're distant cousins, in the thousands of years most likely. I say this because my mtDNA haplogroup is T5 too. I have 2 or 3 more HVR1 mutations than you, so that tells me that our common maternal line ancestor lived thousands of years ago. The most distant maternal line ancestor I know of was about born 1820 near Naples, in southern Italy. So you can see that the ancestors of us T5's spread all over Europe from the Near East.

                      Originally posted by Russ Lipton
                      (I am cognizant of the general differences between Y-DNA and MT-DNA relative to origins, both with precision and dating).

                      These are a couple of questions:

                      1. Is it useful to look into the specific mutations and how would I best do that?

                      2. Broadly, what is the meaning of the HVR1 matches and the lack of HVR2 matches, if any, at this early stage in genetic testing?
                      To answer your questions:

                      1. The first thing to do, if you haven't yet is to upload your mtDNA results to mitosearch.org. You do that from your FTDNA personal page. Click on the mtDNA matches tab and look for the link, which will probably say "Click here," that will upload your results to the mitosearch.org database.

                      Once your results are on mitosearch you can easily compare your results to others, either using specific mutations or by searching for a specific haplogroup. The last time I checked by haplogroup there were 42 T5's on mitosearch, so you should be #43. My mitosearch ID is 6M79M.

                      2. As I mentioned above, because I have a few more HVR1 mutations than you do, our common ancestor was several thousands years ago. My understanding is that even with a perfect match for both HVR1 and HVR2 mutations, the best that can be said statistically is that the two people share a common ancestor in the last 700 years. Of course, if their ancestors came from the same area, that increases the chances that the ancestor may have been more recent. The main reason you don't have any HVR2 matches is that probably most people who test mtDNA only test HVR1.

                      Mike Maddi

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Exclude relationships?

                        Mike -

                        Thanks, helpful, cuz

                        Someone knowledgeable in the ways of DNA told me they believe MT-DNA is primarily helpful in excluding potential relationships, not confirming them (or, at least, not confirming them in a relevant fashion).

                        So, I can be sure that I do not have matrilineal relatives - along that specific line - who were not T5. While this is true for Y-DNA, Y-DNA can do a far better job of identifying possible positive matches in historically-relevant time frames.

                        While one could find that frustrating, I found it helpful. Would you agree with that? Is it likely to change as the state-of-the-art advances? I am not thinking so much of database growth but more subtle analysis of mitochondrial DNA. Or is it baked into the cake due to the nature of the case?

                        I was also told that T5 is rather rare at this point. True?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Russ Lipton
                          Mike -

                          Thanks, helpful, cuz

                          Someone knowledgeable in the ways of DNA told me they believe MT-DNA is primarily helpful in excluding potential relationships, not confirming them (or, at least, not confirming them in a relevant fashion).

                          So, I can be sure that I do not have matrilineal relatives - along that specific line - who were not T5. While this is true for Y-DNA, Y-DNA can do a far better job of identifying possible positive matches in historically-relevant time frames.
                          I believe you're correct about that. All your maternal line ancestors were T5, up to the point that some woman, whose mother was a T, had the mutation(s) that started T5. And before that woman, all your maternal line ancestors were T, up to the point that some woman, whose mother was a JT, had the mutation(s) that started T.

                          So one use of mtDNA results is to exclude that you and someone else are related in your maternal lines. If you're a T5 and someone else is a U5a1a or whatever, there's no way you share a maternal line ancestor - unless you go back to "mitocondrial Eve" in Africa 100,000 years ago.

                          Originally posted by Russ Lipton
                          While one could find that frustrating, I found it helpful. Would you agree with that? Is it likely to change as the state-of-the-art advances? I am not thinking so much of database growth but more subtle analysis of mitochondrial DNA. Or is it baked into the cake due to the nature of the case?
                          My personal opinion is that there will be improvement in the ability to use mtDNA results to prove relatedness, possibly even within a genealogical timeframe. I think that will come through a combination of bigger databases giving us a better look at the various groups and where they're more predominant, along with a better scientific understanding of mtDNA and how it mutates and technical improvements to find the mutations. However, given how slowly mtDNA mutates in comparison to yDNA, I don't think it will ever catch up. Just my personal opinion, as a layman who is trying to learn (since July of last year) as much as I can about genetic genealogy and population genetics.

                          Originally posted by Russ Lipton
                          I was also told that T5 is rather rare at this point. True?
                          Well, somewhat rare. I think the estimate of T's in people of European ancestry is 10%. Since T5 is a smaller segment of that, it's probably just a few percent.

                          Mike

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Update on Pater Search

                            There is so much to say; I will stick to the minimum.

                            I haven't had a breakthrough in the search for my father's birth parents yet - confirmation from my half-uncle's Y-DNA test will itself be vital in this process. Maybe we really are Lipkes! Fine with me. However, the genealogical evidence points strongly in the direction of adoption.

                            I have identified, with early help from the Great Falls court, an adopted child record that just possibly might be that of my father under a related but different name. We suspect that the woman who placed him may have registered a number of children under her surname (a common practice of the time) before transferring him to the adopted parents. This assumes she herself was not my father's mother; plausible but doubtful in our mind and those who have carefully analyzed the letters shared between her and my 'grandmother'.

                            We have identified a person from Great Falls who may be the Mrs J. Bartlett of the letters - while excluding many Bartletts who cannot fit by reasons of age, spouse, timing, etc.

                            We have also located a particular family's records (and only one family) that could fit my father's parental heritage *given* the implications of the Cohen gene and *if* the family story that he was a Clark is accurate and *if* my father is part-Blackfoot - also according to the family mythos.

                            We hope his MT-DNA will shed light on Indian background in a few weeks. Fortunately, most marriages were between white males and Indian squaws.

                            In germ, the the father (Malcolm Clarke) was mixed Caucasian-Indian; his own father was white. The mother (Emma Hamilton Clarke) was mixed Caucasian-Indian; her father was white (and, at one time, the sheriff of Teton County). In both cases, we have some circumstantial evidence to suspect that the Caucasians may well have been Jewish. There is a gap in child-bearing at the time my father was born that could fit as well.

                            Most likely, these speculations will be false and one (e.g., me) will look silly. No harm, no foul. Hypothesize, test, fail, learn, hypothesize ...

                            Another line of thought has us considering orphan trains. Now, there is a historical subject unknown to most Americans! Under that search hypothesis, the story about Indians and Clark (with allusions always supplied to Lewis & Clark) would turn out to have been a red (blush) herring.

                            Since we are talking sparsely populated frontier Montana (not exactly metro NYC) as well as, surprisingly, fairly decent record-keeping (an exhaustive census of the Blackfoot tribe in 1910 and a fair bit of data back to 1880), the data found so far is suggestive, if nothing else.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              For the Cognoscenti

                              .... on the adopted child suggestion ....

                              There were three children adopted in the requested time frame under the requested names (Clark, Bartlett, Lipke) in Great Falls:

                              Gilbert Clark, Lawrence Bartlett, Annie Marie Bartlett

                              (I have no other details on them yet).

                              All three of these (wanted) children then disappear forever after from federal, state and local records so far as we know - census, military, marriage, death. None of them appear before that time frame either. The latter is less odd since they may all have been infants.

                              One such disappearance would not be unusual; three is odd but explicable *given* guardianship and adoption practices then common - including subsequent renaming by the final adopting family.

                              'Gilbert Clark' is reasonably close to my father's subsequent given name of Delbert Clark Lipke. Indeed, it could even be a transcription error ('G' for 'D' and 'i' for the intended 'e'). He would be 'Bert' in any case.

                              If the speculation is plausible, the name Clark could have been retained initially by Mrs J. Bartlett because of the baby having the country sheriff (albeit a Hamilton himself) as a forebear. She would have been ten years younger than the sheriff - both were active in Choteau and must have known one another.

                              Hey, it's all just for fun .... probably.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Russ, I don't know if this fits in with your hypotheses, but there were orphan trains for Jewish children, I think funded by Baron de Hirsch, from the New York City area to the midwest. I don't know any details, but I remember reading about them.
                                Judy

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X