Beginner with CMH and J1 questions

[Russ Lipton]

Stevo -

Thank you for your kind words. I admit to my amazement this is creating a, shall we say, understandable interest on my part in DNA testing. Heck, I haven't even had a moment to email the 19 DNA perfect matches ... all those Cohens, Abrams', etc I'm kidding totally, but watch it turn out that one of them has a family with a known descemdant who ended up in Montana in 1914.

I do intend to provide a link to a collected set of facts and ongoing genealogy questions when I can get my act (brain) together. Honestly, many (not all) of the discoveries in both their sequence and detail are nearly as surprising as the overall narrative. That way, folks who are interested can check that occasionally. Even if we learn nothing more genealogically, I am humbled by realizing that many adoptees (esp. 90 years ago) learn (and can learn) nothing about their actual families.

That said, my dad was quite shaken by my just-completed 'demonstration' that he was truly adopted - brave about going forward but shaken. His entire life narrative has, after all, collapsed. I tried my best to reconnect him with the fact that he was WANTED by the Lipkes and was still, after all, their son. Adopted sons are still sons. Knowing his memory problems, I am afraid he will focus on the 'then who were my parents?' part. I hope I can find out.

If I turn out in some way in the cosmic scheme of things to *actually* be a 'Cohen' through finding real relatives with some 67-gene match in 2015 and (joking again) the grandson of an Indian daughter of a Blackfoot chief, I will simply fall over.

I mean, if you knew me personally, you would know how utterly ordinary I and my life have been ...

So, not away, but I'll try to (continue to) keep it on a need to know/share basis - with link.

[Stevo]

I hope you will return often, Russ. Yours is probably the most fascinating story I've seen here and this one of the most interesting threads.

I also hope you are blessed by finding out all you want to know.

[Russ Lipton]

tomcat - many thanks.

By the way, I have now read the letters in question. Not only do I believe my father was adopted, but I am fairly confident I have located the person in Montana who placed him with his adopted Lipke parents - who turn out to have been living in Montana during the time period ...

Though we may never know, the letters do contain street addresses, a few names, a process of going forward with notarizations and such, etc. Great Falls, Montana was a relatively sophisticated place and Montana was keeping decent records. In addition, they brought my father back to Colorado (their long-time home) and probably used the records obtained in Colorado to record him in Denver.

I am moving forward on several genealogical fronts as well as more DNA testing. I will not pester the forum with personal details on a regular basis, but I may return to this thread as needed with DNA-related questions and, in that context, discoveries we make over the next couple of months about DNA and my father's paternal and maternal roots. Heck, we are going to learn something about my mother's as well.

[tomcat]

Sorry, confused the threads - here a cut-and-paste from "X-STR and Genealogy" on this forum concerning FTDN and DNA-F sharing of samples etc.

"This new FAQ on DNA-FP's website should help answer some of these questions":

http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modu...aq=yes&id_cat=1

[tomcat]

I know that DNA-Fingerprint has procedures for transferring samples, chain-of-custody, etc. I suppose FTDNA does as well. You ought write them.

And you ought also write the lab to which you wish samples sent. Some labs do insist on original samples and the use of their extraction procedures.

As per another Link in his thread, the only issue in swapping samples from DNA-F And FTDNA going forward will be "paper work".

Tom

[Russ Lipton]

Dumb question #117 but remember that six days ago, I was living in blissful ignorance of DNA and genealogy:

Can my or my father/mother's DNA be borrowed from FT for other tests by other companies? My immediate assumption is - of course not. But that might affect how soon I make sure to have such tests done for my father, at least.

Please advise.

[tomcat]

With some reservations I would still support an autosomal test. As long as you have parental dna samples there is no great urgency. As I mentioned on another thread my son and I are holding off untill Ancestry by Dna or Ftdna come out with an improved product. Current editions of autosomal tests have a number of problems, for example: they produce results sometimes quite discrepant with other information and they lack samples of many relevant European regions in addition to the limited Jewish samples mentioned earlier (DnaTRibes)--- they rely on unrepresentative samples and sometimes yield unreliable results (Ancestry by Dna) .
Nevertheless autosomal tests provide unique information. Over 99% of our genes are contained in our autosomes, including genes that affect physical appearance, health and psychological functioning. Autosomal tests only cover a small sample of genes but they are a step in the right direction. The tests in use select genetic locations found to be most helpful in distinguishing among geographical regions.

European samples currently not included in DNATribes' list of Populations are available on the ENFSI site - www.str-base.org. This database will compute the likelihood of your belonging to any of 24 Euro populations but can only use 8 of the 13 CODIS markers that DNATribes employs as the Euro's have a different forensic standard. If you care to supplement your DNATribes/CODIS results so that you can use the ENFSI database fully a second autosomal STR panel is available from DNA-Fingerprint (www.dna-fingerprint.com).

For those with Native American ancestry the Canadian forensic site is useful - www.csfs.ca/databases/index.htm - their forensic standard is the same as the US.

There are additional databases - see Links - External Links on the www.dna-fingerprint site.

Tom

[efgen]

Russ's research has taken some very interesting twists! I'm looking forward to seeing him get all those twists straightened out

This has actually been a very good case study on how to use the myriad of genealogical resources on the internet to do both genealogy (going back in time) and so-called "reverse genealogy" (going forward in time to track down living descendants). And this is exactly the topic that I'll be presenting at the IAJGS Jewish Genealogy conference this weekend!

[Russ Lipton]

My bad and happily so: it wasn't my uncle who fell.

On the other hand, though I cannot yet be certain, my 'first cousin' has three letters which do indeed seem to indicate my father may have been adopted. The letters come from Montana .. the state where my father had indeed been told he was born.

So, I may perhaps not be a Lipke ... now, could it be that when his mother's family changed his name from Lipke to Lipton rather than to Thompson (theirs), they were onto something about his original family?

I am awaiting copies of the letters as well as some other information.

[Russ Lipton]

I will update this ... I spoke two hours ago for the first time to a first cousin by a second marriage of my grandfather. I called his sister an hour ago; she is the one who had the information online that my own father was adopted (?).

Unbelievably, I was told that her father (my 80+ year old uncle) had just fallen and been taken to the hospital.

Elise Friedman can vouch for the ongoing details of my search and its veracity day by day because she has helped with much of it - very few details of which I have shared yet and may never; most of which is amazing (at least to me).

In five days, I have gone from learning about my DNA to discovering my father's family to learning that it is possible we may not be biologically related to them (yes, I know, YDNA if they are willing ;-)

And now this ...

[josh w.]

With some reservations I would still support an autosomal test. As long as you have parental dna samples there is no great urgency. As I mentioned on another thread my son and I are holding off untill Ancestry by Dna or Ftdna come out with an improved product. Current editions of autosomal tests have a number of problems, for example: they produce results sometimes quite discrepant with other information and they lack samples of many relevant European regions in addition to the limited Jewish samples mentioned earlier (DnaTRibes)--- they rely on unrepresentative samples and sometimes yield unreliable results (Ancestry by Dna) .
Nevertheless autosomal tests provide unique information. Over 99% of our genes are contained in our autosomes, including genes that affect physical appearance, health and psychological functioning. Autosomal tests only cover a small sample of genes but they are a step in the right direction. The tests in use select genetic locations found to be most helpful in distinguishing among geographical regions.

[tomcat]

If you get DNA samples from your parents and submit them to a lab and have authority over them you can continue to order tests from said samples indefinitely. Most labs hold samples for a minimum number of years and longer at user request.

You can get an STR autosomal test from www.dnatribes.com and a SNP autosomal test from www.ancestrybydna.com The most economical route (and my personal opinions/recommendations) are contained in earlier posts to this thread.

Tom

[Russ Lipton]

Josh W -

You say in another thread that autosomal testing is in its infancy. Couldn't I have that done on my father's DNA subsequently as the test grows more useful (also, as his son, would I be able to order DNA tests in general after he dies)?

More precisely, I am still somewhat confused about a number of things, even after reading you, Tomcat, etc:

1. Who administers autosomal tests?
2. How much do they cost?
3. What do they test for precisely (e.g., what type of report is provided)?
4. What do they show that Y-DNA or mt-DNA does not?
5. What is the nature of the current autosomal databases and, again, why not wait?
5. How reliable are the results at this stage in the science?

By the way, the startling development with my father is that he himself may have been adopted by the Lipke family.

That is a squishy 'may' but one I am now tracking down as best I can. That information came from Amandus Lipke's granddaughter from a second marriage through genealogy posts. Though her address/phone are not current, I am hopeful of locating her, perhaps even today.

[josh w.]

Russ, an autosomal test will be informative whether or not you have Jewish ancestry. For those searching for Jewish ancestry DnaTribes has a few Jewish samples. However, the size of the Jewish samples is alot smaller than the number of Jewish participants in Ftdna's Ydna and Mtdna databases. Consequently the chance of finding Jewish connections is greater with Ydna or Mtdna tests.

[Russ Lipton]

Very interesting ... and a new and startling twist may indeed argue for my father to have such a test. In any case, both my father and mother are up for whatever tests might be helpful or just interesting to us together - very cool.