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  • #16
    Tomcat -

    We also know now that my father's maternal grandfather (John Thompson) emigrated to Michigan from Denmark in 1876. His wife (Harriet ___) was born in Wisconsin. It is possible that she was of Indian descent but I doubt it strongly for other reasons not worth going into here. I think the Indian story was conflated by my father due to infancy spent in Montana before his parents (Annandus Lipke/Miranda Thompson Lipke) moved to Colorado.

    That said, I am working on them; not sure they're up for it. If not, I can do the mt-DNA test for my mother's side and intend to do so.

    Comment


    • #17
      Russ, second Tomcat's suggestion about an autosomal test. Autosomal tests provide information that gives a more comprehensive picture of one's genetic background than just Ydna and Mtdna. At this point few autosomal databases have many Jewish participants but Ftdna's expansion into this area may improve the situation.
      Your grandfather's name could be German rather than Jewish, however the frequency of haplogroup J is not very high in Germany. By the way, the given name Lepke means "little Louis" in Yiddish (from Leib or Lev).
      josh w.
      FTDNA Customer
      Last edited by josh w.; 5 August 2006, 07:53 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Josh W --

        Again, thanks, more education.

        I have been in correspondence with Jeffrey Schweitzer who has implied (if I get him) that the European derivation may not be significant since many Jews did not take surnames at all until the late 18th century and didn't hesitate to modify them. In other words, while it is clear that my grandfather was comfortable with the name Lipke (unlike my father's maternal grandparents), he (or his family) may have changed TO Lipke from something else; either in Europe or the states. His 1930 census record does say that he believed his own parents to both have been BORN in Germany as well as himself.

        In any case thanks to one possibly accurate piece of information my father had from his early childhood (that his father remarried in Denver and had children), I believe I am on the cusp of identifying three of my grandfather's children there - and other descendants later. One might think that speaking with THEM (any of them) will clear up many, many mysteries about this branch of the 'Lipke' family.

        I am simply stunned with how quickly this is moving, considering that people take decades to find relatives. Of course, in a sense, it has been decades ... and my father is 91. At least one of the possible half-siblings does not have a death certificate ...

        Comment


        • #19
          Avotaynu

          Hello Russ Lipton,

          I'm finding your personal story fascinating. I hope more things turn up for you.
          Out of curiosity I checked your surname, "Lipke" at an excellent website where people can find links to Jewish surnames, as to their historical locations and sometimes family histories. I did see your surname there with plenty of links.

          Just link on below, perhaps you might find something:

          http://www.avotaynu.com/csi/csi-home.html

          Take care

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Russ Lipton
            I have been in correspondence with Jeffrey Schweitzer who has implied (if I get him) that the European derivation may not be significant since many Jews did not take surnames at all until the late 18th century and didn't hesitate to modify them. In other words, while it is clear that my grandfather was comfortable with the name Lipke (unlike my father's maternal grandparents), he (or his family) may have changed TO Lipke from something else; either in Europe or the states. His 1930 census record does say that he believed his own parents to both have been BORN in Germany as well as himself.
            In the Polish-Lithuanian Republic, in which 60-80% of the world's Jews resided during the Renaissance, the Jewish community was largely self-governing and chose to continue using its traditional patronymics (e.g., 'David ben Yitzhak'):

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Jewish_usage

            Only in the late 18th century, when the Russian, Prussian/German, and Austrian Empires occupied the Republic did those empires force Jews to choose permanent surnames. Thus, Jewish surnames originating in the Russian Empire will 'look' Russian; Jewish surnames originating in the Prussian/German and Austrian Empires will 'look' German.

            That brings up an important point. Although census and immigration records may show Germany as your grandfather's origin, either he or his grandparents may actually come from the German-occupied part of the Polish-Lithuanian Republic (what would now be Poland or Lithuania).

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by josh w.
              Russ, second Tomcat's suggestion about an autosomal test. Autosomal tests provide information that gives a more comprehensive picture of one's genetic background than just Ydna and Mtdna. At this point few autosomal databases have many Jewish participants but Ftdna's expansion into this area may improve the situation. ...
              The degree of definition in DNATribes' Continental analysis is already superior to DNAPrint's Euro 1.0 - the follow-on test to Ancestry by DNA 2.5. And while it is true that DNATribes will not yield percentage estimates of admixture of four "generic" ancestries, as ABDNA 2.5 does, the matches DNATribes yields are to actual populations.

              Furthermore, the markers employed are widely used in forensic applications and can be researched in other, public databases (see - www.dna-fingerprint.com - choose Links from menu in left column, when page opens choose External Links and try the five links to STR databases - RCMP, NIST, ENFSI, ALFRED, and Dusseldorf. In addition, there is an example of of STR-based analysis by Thomas Krahn on the DNA-F site).

              FTDNA customers can now access all of this through FTDNA following FTDNA's purchase of DNA-F. (DNATribes is a separate company offering an
              analysis of autosomal STR results via proprietary statistical methods).

              Tom

              Comment


              • #22
                Very interesting ... and a new and startling twist may indeed argue for my father to have such a test. In any case, both my father and mother are up for whatever tests might be helpful or just interesting to us together - very cool.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Russ, an autosomal test will be informative whether or not you have Jewish ancestry. For those searching for Jewish ancestry DnaTribes has a few Jewish samples. However, the size of the Jewish samples is alot smaller than the number of Jewish participants in Ftdna's Ydna and Mtdna databases. Consequently the chance of finding Jewish connections is greater with Ydna or Mtdna tests.
                  josh w.
                  FTDNA Customer
                  Last edited by josh w.; 6 August 2006, 01:27 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Josh W -

                    You say in another thread that autosomal testing is in its infancy. Couldn't I have that done on my father's DNA subsequently as the test grows more useful (also, as his son, would I be able to order DNA tests in general after he dies)?

                    More precisely, I am still somewhat confused about a number of things, even after reading you, Tomcat, etc:

                    1. Who administers autosomal tests?
                    2. How much do they cost?
                    3. What do they test for precisely (e.g., what type of report is provided)?
                    4. What do they show that Y-DNA or mt-DNA does not?
                    5. What is the nature of the current autosomal databases and, again, why not wait?
                    5. How reliable are the results at this stage in the science?

                    By the way, the startling development with my father is that he himself may have been adopted by the Lipke family.

                    That is a squishy 'may' but one I am now tracking down as best I can. That information came from Amandus Lipke's granddaughter from a second marriage through genealogy posts. Though her address/phone are not current, I am hopeful of locating her, perhaps even today.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If you get DNA samples from your parents and submit them to a lab and have authority over them you can continue to order tests from said samples indefinitely. Most labs hold samples for a minimum number of years and longer at user request.

                      You can get an STR autosomal test from www.dnatribes.com and a SNP autosomal test from www.ancestrybydna.com The most economical route (and my personal opinions/recommendations) are contained in earlier posts to this thread.

                      Tom

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        With some reservations I would still support an autosomal test. As long as you have parental dna samples there is no great urgency. As I mentioned on another thread my son and I are holding off untill Ancestry by Dna or Ftdna come out with an improved product. Current editions of autosomal tests have a number of problems, for example: they produce results sometimes quite discrepant with other information and they lack samples of many relevant European regions in addition to the limited Jewish samples mentioned earlier (DnaTRibes)--- they rely on unrepresentative samples and sometimes yield unreliable results (Ancestry by Dna) .
                        Nevertheless autosomal tests provide unique information. Over 99% of our genes are contained in our autosomes, including genes that affect physical appearance, health and psychological functioning. Autosomal tests only cover a small sample of genes but they are a step in the right direction. The tests in use select genetic locations found to be most helpful in distinguishing among geographical regions.
                        josh w.
                        FTDNA Customer
                        Last edited by josh w.; 7 August 2006, 08:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I will update this ... I spoke two hours ago for the first time to a first cousin by a second marriage of my grandfather. I called his sister an hour ago; she is the one who had the information online that my own father was adopted (?).

                          Unbelievably, I was told that her father (my 80+ year old uncle) had just fallen and been taken to the hospital.

                          Elise Friedman can vouch for the ongoing details of my search and its veracity day by day because she has helped with much of it - very few details of which I have shared yet and may never; most of which is amazing (at least to me).

                          In five days, I have gone from learning about my DNA to discovering my father's family to learning that it is possible we may not be biologically related to them (yes, I know, YDNA if they are willing ;-)

                          And now this ...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            My bad and happily so: it wasn't my uncle who fell.

                            On the other hand, though I cannot yet be certain, my 'first cousin' has three letters which do indeed seem to indicate my father may have been adopted. The letters come from Montana .. the state where my father had indeed been told he was born.

                            So, I may perhaps not be a Lipke ... now, could it be that when his mother's family changed his name from Lipke to Lipton rather than to Thompson (theirs), they were onto something about his original family?

                            I am awaiting copies of the letters as well as some other information.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Russ's research has taken some very interesting twists! I'm looking forward to seeing him get all those twists straightened out

                              This has actually been a very good case study on how to use the myriad of genealogical resources on the internet to do both genealogy (going back in time) and so-called "reverse genealogy" (going forward in time to track down living descendants). And this is exactly the topic that I'll be presenting at the IAJGS Jewish Genealogy conference this weekend!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by josh w.
                                With some reservations I would still support an autosomal test. As long as you have parental dna samples there is no great urgency. As I mentioned on another thread my son and I are holding off untill Ancestry by Dna or Ftdna come out with an improved product. Current editions of autosomal tests have a number of problems, for example: they produce results sometimes quite discrepant with other information and they lack samples of many relevant European regions in addition to the limited Jewish samples mentioned earlier (DnaTRibes)--- they rely on unrepresentative samples and sometimes yield unreliable results (Ancestry by Dna) .
                                Nevertheless autosomal tests provide unique information. Over 99% of our genes are contained in our autosomes, including genes that affect physical appearance, health and psychological functioning. Autosomal tests only cover a small sample of genes but they are a step in the right direction. The tests in use select genetic locations found to be most helpful in distinguishing among geographical regions.
                                European samples currently not included in DNATribes' list of Populations are available on the ENFSI site - www.str-base.org. This database will compute the likelihood of your belonging to any of 24 Euro populations but can only use 8 of the 13 CODIS markers that DNATribes employs as the Euro's have a different forensic standard. If you care to supplement your DNATribes/CODIS results so that you can use the ENFSI database fully a second autosomal STR panel is available from DNA-Fingerprint (www.dna-fingerprint.com).

                                For those with Native American ancestry the Canadian forensic site is useful - www.csfs.ca/databases/index.htm - their forensic standard is the same as the US.

                                There are additional databases - see Links - External Links on the www.dna-fingerprint site.

                                Tom

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