Italian haplogroups

[vineviz]

Asking here is probably the fastest way to find what I'm looking for, so here goes:

Does anyone know of a reference that reports the haplogroup distribution for a large sample across all of Italy?

I've found a couple of papers that provide great depth for small regions, and some that provide detailed subclade information for some haplogroups, but I'd really like something that pulls it all together with a common methodology.

I'd like to add this information to the Italy DNA Project pages.

[F.E.C.]

Does anyone know of a reference that reports the haplogroup distribution for a large sample across all of Italy?

Here is something:

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

The pie on page 2 seems likely to me, I don't know what's the methodology behind these maps, though
I took a glance at the references in the bibliography and none of them had an appealing title to me.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid there are no exhaustive studies reguarding Italy, Vincent.

[MMaddi]

Vincent,

First of all, thanks and congratulations for taking on the job of co-administrator of the Italy Project. From time to time I remind members of the Sicily Project that it exists and encourage them to join it.

I think that unfortunately Francesco is probably right that there is little in the way of comprehensive studies of Italy and its haplogroups. Maybe in Italian, which I want to learn to read, but not in English. So, in a sense, projects like ours, as they grow, will provide a little peek into what Italy's haplogroup distribution is.

One thing I started earlier this month is to search on www.yhrd.org for those haplotypes that were from Sicily. There were about 200 haplotypes that were just classified as "Sicily" and another 250 that were specified as from different cities, especially in Trapani province for some reason. Then I looked at the "20 most common haplotypes" for each city specified and ran each haplotype through Whit Athey's haplogroup predictor to get an idea of what the haplogroup distribution for each city was.

There are problems with this. First of all, the yhrd.org haplotypes use only 9 markers, so it's not necessarily as accurate as comparing 37 markers would be. Also, it's very time-consuming and I've put this aside for the moment. I hope that if I follow through on this, it might give me some idea of how one area of Sicily differs from others in haplogroup distribution.

Mike Maddi

[vineviz]

Thanks, guys.

I did find just find a study by Rosser et al. that is a broad overview. Here's a link to the relevant chart:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...02082.tb1.html

HG 1 = R1b
HG 2 = I
HG 3 = R1a
HG 9 = J
HG 21 = E3b
HG 26 = N3

Using some of the haplogroup specific papers, I think I might be able to add a couple of subclades for I and J.

We have a couple of groups not included in this paper (G2, L, & R1a so far) but at least its a start.

[MMaddi]

We have 61 yDNA results in the Sicily Project. Here's our haplogroup distribution:

J - 19 (31.1%)
R1b - 16 (26.2%)
I - 8 (13.1%)
E3b - 7 (11.5%)
G - 7 (11.5%)
R1a - 4 (6.6%)

Looking at the chart at the link you provided, it looks like Sicily, compared to Italy as a whole, has significantly higher levels of J (31.1 vs. 20.0) and lower levels of R1b (26.2 vs 44.0). That's not a big surprise, given Sicily's geographical position in the Mediterranean and its history.

Mike

[F.E.C.]

Vineviz, I think this study might be of interest to you:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

That's about Y-DNA in south-eastern Europe in general, nevertheless Italy is indirectly mentioned.
I would suggest to take a look at the cool statistics and figures.

[vineviz]

Vineviz, I think this study might be of interest to you:

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/slavic.pdf

That's about Y-DNA in south-eastern Europe in general, nevertheless Italy is indirectly mentioned.
I would suggest to take a look at the cool statistics and figures.

That was helpful, actually. Using that and a few other papers (by Rosser, Rootsi, Semino, and Cruciani) I have calculated the following:


Estimated Frequency of Haplogroups in the Italian Population

E3b1 12%
E3b3 3%
G2 8%
I1a 2%
I1b 1%
I1c 2%
J1 2%
J2 24%
L 1%
N3 3%
Q3 1%
R1a1 2%
R1b 39%

-----------------

Now, based on the current Italy DNA Project members:
Calculated Frequency of Haplogroups in the Italy DNA Project

E3b1 14%
E3b3 0%
G2 5%
I1a 5%
I1b 8%
I1c 0%
J1 3%
J2 32%
L 3%
N3 0%
Q3 0%
R1a1 3%
R1b 27%

[MMaddi]

That was helpful, actually. Using that and a few other papers (by Rosser, Rootsi, Semino, and Cruciani) I have calculated the following:


Estimated Frequency of Haplogroups in the Italian Population

E3b1 12%
E3b3 3%
G2 8%
I1a 2%
I1b 1%
I1c 2%
J1 2%
J2 24%
L 1%
N3 3%
Q3 1%
R1a1 2%
R1b 39%

-----------------

Now, based on the current Italy DNA Project members:
Calculated Frequency of Haplogroups in the Italy DNA Project

E3b1 14%
E3b3 0%
G2 5%
I1a 5%
I1b 8%
I1c 0%
J1 3%
J2 32%
L 3%
N3 0%
Q3 0%
R1a1 3%
R1b 27%

The thing that really stands out when comparing the Sicily and Italy Projects, so far, to the estimates you have from various studies, is the low level of R1b in our two projects. I am guessing this has something to do with the fact that easily the majority of Italian-Americans, which probably all our members are (except for Francesco and maybe one or two others), are descendants of immigrants from southern Italy and Sicily.

If there were more northern Italian paternal line results in the Italy Project, the R1b percentage would probably get closer to your estimated percentage from various studies.

Mike

P.S. Ironically, I am an R1b.

[vineviz]

If there were more northern Italian paternal line results in the Italy Project, the R1b percentage would probably get closer to your estimated percentage from various studies.

I agree. I have yet to find a good R1b study of Italy, though.

[F.E.C.]

The thing that really stands out when comparing the Sicily and Italy Projects, so far, to the estimates you have from various studies, is the low level of R1b in our two projects. I am guessing this has something to do with the fact that easily the majority of Italian-Americans, which probably all our members are (except for Francesco and maybe one or two others), are descendants of immigrants from southern Italy and Sicily.

If there were more northern Italian paternal line results in the Italy Project, the R1b percentage would probably get closer to your estimated percentage from various studies.

Mike

P.S. Ironically, I am an R1b.

I agree, Mike.

There's this man from Trento, though, he is going to get the 37 marker test. I keep in touch with him and, as soon as he receives his results, I'll recommend him to join the Italy Project.
If DNA samples from all across Italy are evenly collected, this project can be as important as an academic study.

[F.E.C.]

That was helpful, actually. Using that and a few other papers (by Rosser, Rootsi, Semino, and Cruciani) I have calculated the following:


Estimated Frequency of Haplogroups in the Italian Population

E3b1 12%
E3b3 3%
G2 8%
I1a 2%
I1b 1%
I1c 2%
J1 2%
J2 24%
L 1%
N3 3%
Q3 1%
R1a1 2%
R1b 39%

-----------------

Now, based on the current Italy DNA Project members:
Calculated Frequency of Haplogroups in the Italy DNA Project

E3b1 14%
E3b3 0%
G2 5%
I1a 5%
I1b 8%
I1c 0%
J1 3%
J2 32%
L 3%
N3 0%
Q3 0%
R1a1 3%
R1b 27%

It's all very interesting.

Whereas it is true that we are below the national average for what concerns R1b, I also think we are above the expectations for this haplogroup in Sicily. Aren't we?

There are no N's yet in the project, but I can see Italian N's actually exist since I've got one of them at a GD of 4 on 12 markers.

[MMaddi]

It's all very interesting.

Whereas it is true that we are below the national average for what concerns R1b, I also think we are above the expectations for this haplogroup in Sicily. Aren't we?

When the project first started, the R1b's were running about 40% or more of the results. I was surprised and thought maybe what I read about R1b's decreasing as you moved away from western and northern Europe was wrong.

Now it's settled down to about 25-30%, which sounds about right.

Mike

[Stevo]

I would be interested in seeing the SNP breakdown of the R1bs in the Italian and Sicily projects, especially with regard to S21 and S28.

I think I read that the only P66+s to date are Italian? Is that true or just urban legend?

[MMaddi]

I would be interested in seeing the SNP breakdown of the R1bs in the Italian and Sicily projects, especially with regard to S21 and S28.

Francesco and I are the only R1b's in the Sicily or Italy Project who've been tested for S21. I think none have been tested for S28, but I may be wrong about that. I know of two R1b's in the Sicily Project who tested negative for the SNPs in FTDNA's deep clade test, although they're both waiting for M37 and P66. And two other Sicily Project R1b's are awaiting deep clade test results.

I think I read that the only P66+s to date are Italian? Is that true or just urban legend?

Yes, that's true. I got that straight from David Faux in a personal e-mail. He brought it up in regard to members of the Sicily Project who have had the R1b deep clade test at FTDNA. He said they should wait to get the S-series add-on at Ethnoancestry until after FTDNA can get a P66 result for them, since that has shown up positive in Italian paternal line SNP tests.

Mike

[Stevo]

Yes, that's true. I got that straight from David Faux in a personal e-mail. He brought it up in regard to members of the Sicily Project who have had the R1b deep clade test at FTDNA. He said they should wait to get the S-series add-on at Ethnoancestry until after FTDNA can get a P66 result for them, since that has shown up positive in Italian paternal line SNP tests.

Mike

Wow! Did he say how many P66+ Italians have been found? That could be a significant SNP.