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Unusual Hg J in central Europe

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  • Unusual Hg J in central Europe

    We all know of two sources of J in Europe north of the Mediterranean:

    1) The Jewish Diaspora.

    2) Roman citizens and subjects spread during the days of the Empire.

    The other cited source, which is essentially mere hand-waving, is the purported role of J in the spread of agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution.

    So the question becomes: How to interpret instances of Hg J who (a) do not come from areas ever ruled by Romans or other Mediterraneans, and (b) have no known Jewish ancestry and are very far away from known Jewish haplotypes?

    Here are the cases I know of:

    1) VZGZF of Bavaria on Ysearch, 48 markers. Closest match is 5XQAC (below), genetic distance of 16 at 48 markers. Otherwise, closest is GD of 19 at 37 markers.

    2) 5XQAC of Slovakia on Ysearch, 42 markers. Closest match is VZGZF (above). N92DY (below) is only 1 step away, but at only 12 markers. Otherwise, closest is GD of 15 at 31 markers.

    3) GFCKV of Poland on Ysearch, 37 markers but only 12 uploaded. All 37 markers are on the Polish Project web site. You can Ysearch on all 37 markers through this URL:

    http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...rting_marker=9

    GFCKV is 11 away from VZGZF (above) at 37 markers, and 13 away from 5XQAC (above) at 31 markers. All others are at least 20 away at 37 markers.

    Note, however, that GFCKV and VZGZF are closer than one might think. VZGZF has CDYa,b=37,37 whereas GFCKV has CDYa,b=32,37. The difference is almost certainly not 5 independent mutations, but rather a single deletion (37 => 32) or a doubling (32,37 => 37,37). Thus, their nominal GD of 11 should probably be considered more like 8.

    4) N92DY of Poland on Ysearch, 12 markers. Closest is 5XQAC (above). Others are at least 3 away at 12 markers.

    5) 8C96B of Poland on Ysearch, 37 markers. His placement in the Unusual category is debatable. At 37 markers, matches of probable Jewish ancestry are as close as 15 away. At 25 markers, West of England is only 3 away; and at 12 markers, Parra Yepez of Ecuador is an exact match.

    6) Kit # N27315 in Polish Project, no Ysearch entry. He is only debatably Unusual. You can search on his markers via

    http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...ting_marker=10

    He is 1 step away from Minns of England, and 2 away from various.

    Now let us consider the Recent Ancestral Origins lists available for these:

    7) At 25 markers, a German is only 2 away from GFCKV.

    8) At 12 markers, a Czech is only 1 away from GFCKV.

    9) At 12 markers, a Slovak is only 1 away from N92DY.

    10) At 12 markers, an Englishman and a German are only 1 away from kit # N27315.

    So what can we make of all this? Here's my guess:

    A) Any of these descended from the ancient Alans should display the same characteristics as the members of Hg G who appear to be Alan-descended. Namely, (a) they should be found in regions where the Alans settled, and (b) they should have common ancestors from 1500-2000 years ago in the British Isles, where so many Alans-Sarmatians apparently settled. These conditions apply to #5 and #6 above (Ysearch 8C96B and FTDNA N27315).

    B) The others do not appear to be Alan-descended. Moreover, their spread into Slovakia, the Czech Republic, and Germany seems to rule out descent from the Lipka Tatars too. (One would assume that Lipka Tatar descendants would be found mostly in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine.)

    And yet, these others are clearly related to each other much too closely to be merely the scattered remnants of an 80-centuries-ago agricultural revolution. Indeed, VZGZF, GFCKV, and the latter's 23/25 German and 11/12 Czech matches appear to have a common ancestor within the last millennium, and may form a cluster.

    Similarly, 5XQAC, N92DY, and the latter's 11/12 Slovak match appear to form a cluster.

    So does anyone have any credible hypotheses?

  • #2
    Originally posted by lgmayka
    So what can we make of all this? Here's my guess:

    A) Any of these descended from the ancient Alans should display the same characteristics as the members of Hg G who appear to be Alan-descended. Namely, (a) they should be found in regions where the Alans settled, and (b) they should have common ancestors from 1500-2000 years ago in the British Isles, where so many Alans-Sarmatians apparently settled. These conditions apply to #5 and #6 above (Ysearch 8C96B and FTDNA N27315).

    B) The others do not appear to be Alan-descended. Moreover, their spread into Slovakia, the Czech Republic, and Germany seems to rule out descent from the Lipka Tatars too. (One would assume that Lipka Tatar descendants would be found mostly in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine.)

    And yet, these others are clearly related to each other much too closely to be merely the scattered remnants of an 80-centuries-ago agricultural revolution. Indeed, VZGZF, GFCKV, and the latter's 23/25 German and 11/12 Czech matches appear to have a common ancestor within the last millennium, and may form a cluster.

    Similarly, 5XQAC, N92DY, and the latter's 11/12 Slovak match appear to form a cluster.

    So does anyone have any credible hypotheses?
    5XQAC here. My case doesn't spoil the Lipka Tatar theory, it supports it. My ancestors were from what is now Slovakia, but their village was only about 5 miles south of the current Polish border, and the people there were ancestrally Polish. And I have two other pointers to Tatars: autosomal DNA, and the surname Tatar in the family tree. So Tatar's the right answer. Although not central Asian Tatar, just somebody who came up to Poland/Lithuania from somewhere near the Caucasus along with the heterogeneous group called the Lipka Tatars. I have near matches in the Caucasus and Turkey. The migration route for my J1 was Fertile Crescent to Anatolia to the Caucasus or Crimea to Poland/Lithuania to the northernmost Carpathians to Pennsylvania.

    I'm pretty sure N92DY's ancestors took that same route. The other cases, I don't know.

    I agree, not Alans.

    Keep up the good work!

    Jim

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
      And I have two other pointers to Tatars: autosomal DNA, and the surname Tatar in the family tree. So Tatar's the right answer.
      (We need a jaw-dropping icon here.)

      You have the Tatar surname in your family tree?! Well yes, I think that's significant.

      If you don't mind my asking, what did your autosomal DNA test say? Did it indicate the Middle East, or Central Asia, or even East Asia? Keep in mind that because the Tatars are a mixture, you might indeed have some 'Mongol blood' even though your haplogroup is G.

      Comment


      • #4
        According to the National Library of the Republic of Tatarstan, the first book in the Tatar language was published in Leipzig, Germany in 1612:

        http://www.kitaphane.ru/english/abrar_eng.shtml

        I can only imagine two purposes for printing books in Tatar in Germany: for Christian missionaries to evangelize the Tatars, or to meet the needs of Tatars in Germany. Either way, at least a few Christianized Tatars may have ended up in Germany.

        Comment


        • #5
          By the way, Tatar ancestry seems to be rather chic in Poland today:

          http://www.tatarzy.tkb.pl/

          Comment


          • #6
            In a recent post to a mailing list, Bonnie Schrack emphasized the significance of DYS388 in subdividing haplogroup J1.

            8C96B has DYS388=16, which is the modal value.

            FTDNA #N27315 has DYS388=15, which is still on the same side of Bonnie's dividing line as DYS388=16.

            Bonnie considers DYS388=13 or 14 to be an "interesting" group. VZGZF, 5XQAC, GFCKV, and N92DY all have DYS388=13.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lgmayka
              (We need a jaw-dropping icon here.)

              You have the Tatar surname in your family tree?! Well yes, I think that's significant.

              If you don't mind my asking, what did your autosomal DNA test say? Did it indicate the Middle East, or Central Asia, or even East Asia? Keep in mind that because the Tatars are a mixture, you might indeed have some 'Mongol blood' even though your haplogroup is G.
              Autosomally I matched nothing Asian, except South Asian, which is of course known to have ancient migrants from West Asia.

              My autosomal DNA matches seven populations from India, then Lithuanians, Belorussians, Germans, El-Minia Egypt, then another Indian population, then Turkish Aegean, Vienna (but not the general Austrian population), Naples, Lodz Poland, Japanese, Western Poland, Norwegian, Italian.

              No matches to anything Roma anywhere, so that's not the Indian connection.

              No matches to the most Polish part of Poland. I assume Western Poland is Silesia. The place where my ancestors lived was home to migrants from Silesia and Slavicized Germans.

              The mother of my paternal great-grandfather had the surname Tatar. All of my paternal ancestors are Roman Catholic as far back as the records go, before 1700.

              When you look at Lipka Tatars, you are definitely looking at a vector for non-Jewish J1 to Eastern Europe. And DYS388 13 is part of the marker.

              Jim

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                Autosomally I matched nothing Asian, except South Asian, which is of course known to have ancient migrants from West Asia.

                My autosomal DNA matches seven populations from India, then Lithuanians, Belorussians, Germans, El-Minia Egypt, then another Indian population, then Turkish Aegean, Vienna (but not the general Austrian population), Naples, Lodz Poland, Japanese, Western Poland, Norwegian, Italian.
                Jim

                When I said I match nothing Asian, I'm ignoring that Japanese match. I don't know what that's about. A common ancestor 50,000 years ago maybe, no use to me.

                On an earlier iteration of the DNA Tribes test, my strongest Global Match actually was "Polish Tatars." I don't know why it disappeared on the second iteration. Either DNA Tribes changed the algorithm or the additional Indian matches pushed Polish Tatars off the bottom of the list.

                Jim

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lgmayka
                  By the way, Tatar ancestry seems to be rather chic in Poland today:

                  http://www.tatarzy.tkb.pl/

                  My family doesn't look like anybody in those pictures. No matter. "Polish Tatars" is sort of a cover term for people of various backgrounds.

                  Jim

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                    My family doesn't look like anybody in those pictures.
                    Hardly anyone in eastern Europe does. My point was that even though the 'Tatar blood' is highly diluted, so to speak, in most of eastern Europe nowadays, it has often become a distinctive badge worn proudly.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                      The mother of my paternal great-grandfather had the surname Tatar.
                      That is amazing, and certainly not a coincidence. I would expect that Tatars who Christianized and then passed into general society would probably still stick together, at least initially, in "clumps"--or at least come together this way for marriage. Thus, both of your great-grandfather's parents were almost certainly of Tatar lineage.

                      Cool!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                        I assume Western Poland is Silesia. The place where my ancestors lived was home to migrants from Silesia and Slavicized Germans.
                        Nowadays, 'western Poland' is also home to many refugees from the eastern lands (now Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine) who were ethnically Polish or simply fleeing Stalin.

                        Comment

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