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Amh/wamh

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  • #16
    Wamh

    I am one point away from the WAMH and have 410 12-marker matches. I suppose that you can't generalize regarding possible geographic origins without more tests, correct?

    Lloyd
    R1b

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    • #17
      Originally posted by lapp15
      I am one point away from the WAMH and have 410 12-marker matches. I suppose that you can't generalize regarding possible geographic origins without more tests, correct?

      Lloyd
      R1b
      Exactly right. Of all the people who need SNP tests and extended marker upgrades, I think the chief among them would be WAMHers.

      Your surname is German, is it not, Lloyd?

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      • #18
        I think the terms AMH, WAMH, SWAMH tend to be used in different ways by different people. I'm no longer sure of the proper definitions. From memory: appx. 4-5 years ago Dr. James Wilson coined the term Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) to describe the most common 7 or 8 marker (STR) haplotype found in Europe. This haplotype increased in its relative frequency moving westward through Europe, with its greatest representation in Spain (esp. the Basque country), Portugal, Ireland, and maybe France. FTDNA included all 7 or 8 AMH markers in their first 12 marker panel, but expanded (or narrowed, I suppose) the definition to mean a match to the most common 12-marker R1b haplotype, 13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29. At some point they began to call this the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Then the Super-Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype was defined as the modal European R1b values at the 37-markers tested by FTDNA.

        The original AMH, and WAMH I understand were assumed to have derived from the R1b population that survived the last ice age in Iberia. However, there now seems to be a consensus that there were multiple refugia in Europe during the last ice age (or last glacial maximum (LGM), as it's usually termed). The question now is "what is the definition of AMH, both with respect to markers and to origin?" Is it the pan-European modal haplotype, or just the (presumably) Iberian-derived one? At all markers, or at a defined subset? Is AMH still supposed to have come from the Iberian refugium, or could it have existed at others and emanated outward from other refugia as well? The S21+ is a good example: it is believed by some to have derived from a refugium other than Iberia. If this is so, are S21+ individuals who match the AMH (and there are some, depending on which definition of AMH is used)) real AMH individuals, or must "real AMH" folks have come from the Iberian population? I think we will argue in circles until the "proper authorities" give us something more concrete to go on. Or maybe they have, and I've missed it. If so, someone please point me in the right direction!

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        • #19
          Wamh

          While Appel could be a Germanic name, I am Ashkenazi Jewish.

          Lloyd



          From a surname dictionary:


          1. German, a pet form of Apprecht (common especially in Thuringia and Franconia), itself a variant of Albrecht.
          2. German, Dutch and Jewish (Ashkenazic).
          3. an occupational name for a grower or seller of apples. As a Jewish ornamental name, it is generally ornamental rather than occupational.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Rick
            I think the terms AMH, WAMH, SWAMH tend to be used in different ways by different people. I'm no longer sure of the proper definitions. From memory: appx. 4-5 years ago Dr. James Wilson coined the term Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) to describe the most common 7 or 8 marker (STR) haplotype found in Europe. This haplotype increased in its relative frequency moving westward through Europe, with its greatest representation in Spain (esp. the Basque country), Portugal, Ireland, and maybe France. FTDNA included all 7 or 8 AMH markers in their first 12 marker panel, but expanded (or narrowed, I suppose) the definition to mean a match to the most common 12-marker R1b haplotype, 13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29. At some point they began to call this the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Then the Super-Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype was defined as the modal European R1b values at the 37-markers tested by FTDNA.

            The original AMH, and WAMH I understand were assumed to have derived from the R1b population that survived the last ice age in Iberia. However, there now seems to be a consensus that there were multiple refugia in Europe during the last ice age (or last glacial maximum (LGM), as it's usually termed). The question now is "what is the definition of AMH, both with respect to markers and to origin?" Is it the pan-European modal haplotype, or just the (presumably) Iberian-derived one? At all markers, or at a defined subset? Is AMH still supposed to have come from the Iberian refugium, or could it have existed at others and emanated outward from other refugia as well? The S21+ is a good example: it is believed by some to have derived from a refugium other than Iberia. If this is so, are S21+ individuals who match the AMH (and there are some, depending on which definition of AMH is used)) real AMH individuals, or must "real AMH" folks have come from the Iberian population? I think we will argue in circles until the "proper authorities" give us something more concrete to go on. Or maybe they have, and I've missed it. If so, someone please point me in the right direction!
            Since I am a y-dna heretic and don't believe that R1b spent the last Ice Age in Iberia, I think WAMH acquired its W by moving in that direction.
            Last edited by Stevo; 21 July 2006, 09:50 AM.

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            • #21
              [QUOTE=Rick]I think the terms AMH, WAMH, SWAMH tend to be used in different ways by different people. I'm no longer sure of the proper definitions. From memory: appx. 4-5 years ago Dr. James Wilson coined the term Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH) to describe the most common 7 or 8 marker (STR) haplotype found in Europe. . . . QUOTE]

              The article was published on the 24th of April in 2001.

              Genetic Evidence For Different Male and Female Roles During Cultural Transitions in the British Isles, James F. Wilson, Deborah A. Weiss, Martin Richards, Mark G. Thomas, Neil Bradman, and David B. Goldstein, published Proceedings National Academy of Science, U S A., April 24, 2001.

              An earlier paper was the following:
              Michael F. Hammer, Karl Skorecki, and their colleagues in their
              January 2, 1997 paper in Nature volume 385 entitled "Y Chromosomes
              of Jewish Priests" and that of Karl Skorecki, David Goldstein, et al. in
              Nature volume 394 entitled "Origins of Old Testament Priests" as well
              as the related studies with the Lemba tribe of South Africa (American
              Journal of Human Genetics volume 66) and Jewish populations around
              the world (PNAS volume 97 issue 12).

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