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New paper on haplogroup E-M78

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    since e3b is a major part of the hebrew [jewish] genetics why arent figures given for them or would they be n-11
    Jim, that is another gripe for me. Along with not showing any of the data for alleles they show no specific geographic data as well. So, who knows for sure what n-11 represents in the middle east, not to mention Anatolia or the Balkans.

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    • #32
      Kerry,

      Thanks for the reading material. It's weird that a non-typical E3b number popped up rather than a whole trend. My Northern Europe #11 theory may not be correct because I read from some other thread that information on the why's and wherefores of specific numbers isn't clear--yet.

      Best of luck with your relative search. I'll send you over any new information as I find it. No other O'Dairs have shown up yet, but I haven't look at other Ottawa area phone books yet.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Marttinen
        Kerry,

        Thanks for the reading material. It's weird that a non-typical E3b number popped up rather than a whole trend. My Northern Europe #11 theory may not be correct because I read from some other thread that information on the why's and wherefores of specific numbers isn't clear--yet.

        Best of luck with your relative search. I'll send you over any new information as I find it. No other O'Dairs have shown up yet, but I haven't look at other Ottawa area phone books yet.
        Martienen,
        I have been following the other thread you speak of. Unfortunately , my historian skills are weak to say the least. I find that thread informative in regards to history. One point made in the new m78 paper is the a, b, y groups in 2004 study shows an approximate age between 10900 b.c. and 1200 b.c. This seems to differ from the time line in your discussion in the other thread. Also I agree that specific allele's are not a good indicator by themselves. What I would like to see in the ysearch database is a query function like Yhrd database has. For example I have an uncommon 16,16 at 385a and 385b, uncommon 15,9,9 at 458, 459a, and 459b, and uncommon 23 at 390. I would like to input these numbers and see what kind of geographical hits I get with these unusal numbers. There are a number of different ways to input the numbers to come up with a case for a geographical location. Let everyone use their deductive reasoning rather than a few people who have access to the numbers.

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        • #34
          I didn't mention a time for when the move to North Africa came. It's interesting to note that Vandals from Sweden were also skulking about N. Africa around 2,000 years ago.

          One reason I have reservations about dates beyond 6 or so thousand years ago is that physical evidence from things like pottery shards disappears in the Israel area around the time of Omri and Ahab. There's no physical evidence of the great stuctures that David or Solomon built. Sure, we have the pyramids, Jericho (which has resulted in debatable conclusions because Kenyon's original findings haven't been seriously tinkered with), Damascus and ruins of Ur, but the other parts of the Near East rely on textual and linguistic evidence of how history went. Most of these writings are from what has been come to be known as the Bible.

          The documentary hypothesis, which most "higher" education accepts, goes as far as to say that most of the history of the Hebrews was made up by priests during the intertestamental period (between Alexander the Great and the Roman occupation of Palestine in 61 BCE). This means no David, Solomon, Abraham, Isaac, 12 sons (and 1 daughter) of Jacob, Adam, Eve, Cain, Methuselah, etc.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Marttinen
            I didn't mention a time for when the move to North Africa came. It's interesting to note that Vandals from Sweden were also skulking about N. Africa around 2,000 years ago.

            One reason I have reservations about dates beyond 6 or so thousand years ago is that physical evidence from things like pottery shards disappears in the Israel area around the time of Omri and Ahab. There's no physical evidence of the great stuctures that David or Solomon built. Sure, we have the pyramids, Jericho (which has resulted in debatable conclusions because Kenyon's original findings haven't been seriously tinkered with), Damascus and ruins of Ur, but the other parts of the Near East rely on textual and linguistic evidence of how history went. Most of these writings are from what has been come to be known as the Bible.

            The documentary hypothesis, which most "higher" education accepts, goes as far as to say that most of the history of the Hebrews was made up by priests during the intertestamental period (between Alexander the Great and the Roman occupation of Palestine in 61 BCE). This means no David, Solomon, Abraham, Isaac, 12 sons (and 1 daughter) of Jacob, Adam, Eve, Cain, Methuselah, etc.
            I can't really comment to strongly on your remarks, because I agree that, the bible is one of the few written texts that goes back that far in time. But they were still written by men who in all likely hood had their own individual bias to deal with. I think there is an exception to this. But it probably goes around to 1500 b.c. timeframe with Egyptian tablets. I have read a few articles, where tablets have been transcribed. These are not historical documents, but they talk about people and there way of life and where they traveled. One particular article I read, and I can't refer you to it, talks about a 1500 b.c. tablet and a war with what was called the sea people. They were defeated by the Egyptians and took many slaves. One particular slave of the sea people was granted his freedom due to his story telling ability. This tablet described his life and talked about how life was for him. Sometimes I think records like these are more telling than some of the historical documents. You get the perspective of the individual rather than a religious, state, or country perspective. That kind of prehistory interests me. I am sure there are many more tablets that have not been translated for various reasons in the Egyptian archives. Perhaps when these snp's have more confirmed dates of origination, I can begin to track an historical migration of my own individual dna.

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            • #36
              I wanted to mention the above problem in archeology and Bible history just to show the challenge faced in any dating of the events of history. I don't count the documentary hypothesis and the historical-critical method as part of my belief system because of its implications. I go by the historical-grammatical way that accepts the Bible as a fairly accurate account of ancient life, of course biased heavily by the writers. However, there contain some personally embarassing accounts (Jonah, King David's failures, Samson, Israel's stiff-necked response to the prophets), unlike what you find in Egypt.

              The "Sea Peoples" record is from the temple of Rameses III. It was carved on a wall of the temple at Thebes at around 1175-1150 BCE. Of course it shows the "Sea Peoples" being defeated by the Egyptians. Written on the temple wall is a list of several groups of "Sea Peoples" who invaded the coasts from Egypt to Palestine. The Philistines are both pictured and listed among them.

              The oldest picture of Israelites was drawn in Egypt dating to about 1209 BCE. It, too, is at Karnak and shows that the Israelites were vanquished by the armies of Pharaoh Marneptah. The Marneptah Stele is a hieroglyphic text that mentions the victories of Pharaoh Merneptah over the Libyans and the people of Palestine. It is the earliest extrabiblical mention of the name "Israel" thus far known (1230 BC).

              The obvious thing about the "spade" is that the history goes back 4,000 years or so while the genetic construction of people movements are in the tens of thousands of years. When you get a date between 10,000 and 1,200 BCE the side of the barn gets awfully broad.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Marttinen
                I wanted to mention the above problem in archeology and Bible history just to show the challenge faced in any dating of the events of history. I don't count the documentary hypothesis and the historical-critical method as part of my belief system because of its implications. I go by the historical-grammatical way that accepts the Bible as a fairly accurate account of ancient life, of course biased heavily by the writers. However, there contain some personally embarassing accounts (Jonah, King David's failures, Samson, Israel's stiff-necked response to the prophets), unlike what you find in Egypt.

                The "Sea Peoples" record is from the temple of Rameses III. It was carved on a wall of the temple at Thebes at around 1175-1150 BCE. Of course it shows the "Sea Peoples" being defeated by the Egyptians. Written on the temple wall is a list of several groups of "Sea Peoples" who invaded the coasts from Egypt to Palestine. The Philistines are both pictured and listed among them.
                .
                read ages in chaos by emanual velikovski

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                • #38
                  I'll check it out again. I read several Velikovsky books when I was a teenager, prompted by a Reader's Digest book section excerpt. Since then my classic education, which taught me to first disbelieve and then "get to the bottom of things" didn't align too well with his teachings.

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                  • #39
                    This site http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/ is also not so bad to have a look on, if you are interested in:

                    1. Palaeoanthropology (Fossil hominids)
                    2. Skeletal biology and Dental Anthropology of
                    Epipalaeolithic - Neolithic populations
                    Chalcolithic - Recent populations
                    3. Paleopathology in past populations of Israel and the Near East
                    5. DNA ancient and modern
                    6. Normal and abnormal dental development


                    At least Stevo would be delighted with the combination of skeletal remains and ancient Dna research.
                    For us E3b:s (and others too) the Ancient DNA (aDNA) analysis should be of interest as research is dealing with past populations of the Mediterranean Basin:

                    The long-term goal of the present research is to establish a "stratigraphy of genetic profiles" of the diverse populations which inhabited Israel in the past, untangling their inter-group relationships as well as their genetic links to other cultures in the Middle East and Europe.

                    Projects:
                    a) population origins and movements in the Southern Levant;
                    b) origin and spread of genetic disorders in past populations of the Mediterranean Basin.

                    The Israelites, Philistines and Phoenicians, mentioned in this thread are found from the chapter Chalcolithic – Recent Populations:

                    The Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age populations were the direct descendents of the Neolithic populations. They were farmers and pastoralists, and show few characteristics to set them apart from living populations. They were followed by the Early Bronze Age people who built fortified towns throughout the country, introducing the difference between urban and rural lifestyles. Subsequent periods show repeated conflict often introducing new people and cultures such as Israelite, Philistine, Phoenician, Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader and Ottoman.

                    The Publications part have a lot of pdf-files ordered in following categories:

                    Fossil hominids
                    Skeletal Biology
                    Dental Anthropology
                    Palaeopathology
                    DNA analysis
                    a) Ancient DNA
                    b) Modern DNA

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jim Denning
                      read ages in chaos by emanual velikovski

                      he writes on how the pharohs were in the wrong order back in the fifties and what the correct order should be
                      point being not everything i learnt on dates and had to memorize was correct

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