New paper on haplogroup E-M78

[Bill Harvey]

Not exactly ....

Jeff has not been SNP tested for : V12; M224; V32; V13; V27; V22; - he did test negative for M148 (E3b1a3a M148 (added) (formerly E3b1a, then E3b1a2) --- which should also exclude V19 (E3b1a3b V19 (added)).

So - until further testing is done his haplogroup sub-clade could be determined to fall into any of the following locations : (all from current ISoGG chart)

E3b1a* - (negative for all currently identified SNPs in this sub-clade)
E3b1a1 V12
E3b1a1* -
E3b1a1a M224 (formerly E3b1b, then E3b1a2)
E3b1a1b V32
E3b1a2 V13
E3b1a2* -
E3b1a2a V27 (added)
E3b1a3 V22
E3b1a3* -

Hope this helps rather than confuses?

Bill Harvey

[jaken24]

Cruciani et al

Bill and Kerry;
Thanks for the responses, both of you have helped me. According to the paper referenced in this thread, Molecular Dissection of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup M-78 (E3b1a); page 6 has a chart showing all but one M-78* as being beta cluster.
So until the six new biallelic markers are being tested within my price range, I guess I'll remain M-78*.
My dsy were inconclusive even to the point of guessing a sub-clade so I doubt they will help resolve the cluster issue. I was one of those that Dennis Garvey couldn't place in a cluster. ;o|
Patiently, I wait;
Jeff Stewart

[Jim Denning]

I just got my results back, FTDNA says E3b1, but reading some of the papers it looks like E3b1a...HELP.

M35+ M78+ M96+ P2+ M107- M123- M136- M148- M165- M2- M281- M34- M81-

I know that E3b1 has some clusters, I would like some help figuring that out also.

Thanx
Jeff Stewart

ok jess and victor in english how do i know what i am
E3b1
M35+ M78+ M96+ P2+ M107- M123- M136- M148- M165- M281- M34- M81-

[Bill Harvey]

Bill and Kerry;
Thanks for the responses, both of you have helped me. According to the paper referenced in this thread, Molecular Dissection of the Y Chromosome Haplogroup M-78 (E3b1a); page 6 has a chart showing all but one M-78* as being beta cluster.
So until the six new biallelic markers are being tested within my price range, I guess I'll remain M-78*.
My dsy were inconclusive even to the point of guessing a sub-clade so I doubt they will help resolve the cluster issue. I was one of those that Dennis Garvey couldn't place in a cluster. ;o|
Patiently, I wait;
Jeff Stewart

Jeff,

Technically M-78* = (E3b1a* - (negative for all currently identified SNPs in this sub-clade) and inasmuch as you have NOT been tested for all known sub-clades yet I believe you are best designated as M-78 (E3b1a) with some kind of notation appended disclosing that you have not been tested for all relevant SNPs. I'll leave it to the M-78 gurus to guess which cluster you will most likely fall into since this is not my personal home base, so to speak.

It is apparent that more testing will be required for a good many folks in order to to establish the STR haplotype characteristics of the various clusters.

Jim, I believe you are in exactly the same boat as Jeff.

Bill

[KerryODair]

Jim and Jeff we are all in the same boat. I am making my guess based on the following information. Based on Steve Garvey's haplotypes I fall into haplotype #1.
dsy marker
19 13
389i 13
389ii 30
390 23
391 10
392 11
393 13
The only number I differ on is 389ii which is a value of 31 for me. By far this is my best match of the 16 different types he discusses. He says and I quote, this Haplotype appears to be Mediterranean in origin, with greater occurance among Iberians, Hispanics, Italians, Greeks, and Turks. It mostly likely arrived in Britian with Roman troops and settlers. This has a very strong Balkan or Roman Origin. If you look at the diffusion maps for e3b M-78 there are three areas of concentration for origination. One is in the Italy area, another in the Balkans, and the last in the Ethiopia area. I think I fall into the Italy Balkan area which seems to indicate the V13 or M-78* area. Whether v13 is from Italy or the Balkan area or both, and the same goes for M-78*. I think these two clades make up the marjority of current European e3b today.
I think the V32 subclade represents the Ethiopia type. The V22 subclade seems to be a collection of many different types. I think there are further subclades to be identified from this group which probably split of the V13 and M78* subclade. Of the total 232 tested V13, M-78*, and V22 represent 187 people. This is 80% of the total number of people in the test group. I think these groups fall into the e3b european population today. Anyway that's my take on the situation and I am certainly no expert. Hoping to hear soon from the expert folks.

[Marttinen]

It looks like I'm also taking up an oar in that boat. The only thing I wonder about is that 391 for me is 11. Rossi once said that 11 is a Northern European result. Most E3b's I've seen have had the number for 391 at 10. No one from the Jewish E3b Project has 391 at 11 (they are mostly from Eastern Europe) I brought this up on another thread but no one's bitten yet. My numbers:

DSY Marker

393 13
390 24
19 13
391 11
385a 17
385b 18
426 11
388 12
439 11
389i 14
389ii 31

[KerryODair]

Here is a frequency chart for e3b's from Steve Garvey at this URL. You are at the high end of the dys 391 modal. It might make for some interesting reading for you. 9, and 10 are the most dominate numbers for this allele, where as 8 and 11 are at the extremes. He also has frequency numbers for other allele's at this web page. They are located towards the end of the page.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....g/YCC_E3b.html

P.S. Thank you for the phone lookup in Ontario Canada for me. That individual has become part of the project and has submitted a sample to Familytreedna.

[Jim Denning]

Jim and Jeff we are all in the same boat. I am making my guess based on the following information. Based on Steve Garvey's haplotypes I fall into haplotype #1.
dsy marker
19 13
389i 13
389ii 30
390 23
391 10
392 11
393 13
The only number I differ on is 389ii which is a value of 31 for me. By far this is my best match of the 16 different types he discusses. He says and I quote, this Haplotype appears to be Mediterranean in origin, with greater occurance among Iberians, Hispanics, Italians, Greeks, and Turks. It mostly likely arrived in Britian with Roman troops and settlers. This has a very strong Balkan or Roman Origin. If you look at the diffusion maps for e3b M-78 there are three areas of concentration for origination. One is in the Italy area, another in the Balkans, and the last in the Ethiopia area. I think I fall into the Italy Balkan area which seems to indicate the V13 or M-78* area. Whether v13 is from Italy or the Balkan area or both, and the same goes for M-78*. I think these two clades make up the marjority of current European e3b today.
I think the V32 subclade represents the Ethiopia type. The V22 subclade seems to be a collection of many different types. I think there are further subclades to be identified from this group which probably split of the V13 and M78* subclade. Of the total 232 tested V13, M-78*, and V22 represent 187 people. This is 80% of the total number of people in the test group. I think these groups fall into the e3b european population today. Anyway that's my take on the situation and I am certainly no expert. Hoping to hear soon from the expert folks.

HERE IS WHAT I DONT SEE

e3b is from somalia area now some time in the past groups of these people left and went east west and north across the water . so did the e3bs say all you e3b1a2s over there and follow him west
and the e3b2a1s get in the boats. and you e3b2as go to the clinic and get circumcised. what makes us think these branchs didnt already happen and the groups that migrated didnt have the mixture of these different hapologroups

how else can i exact ,match scots and italians and jews

[KerryODair]

I can't dispute your point. However, if you look at the diffusion maps, certainly the largest and most widespead dispersal area is from ethopia and solmalia. The real question pershaps is which is the oldest in terms of time. The African group or the Balkan and Italy group. That would probably give a better indication. If they are of the same approximate time frame, then what you say makes alot of sense. One thing about these snp's they discover is trying to put a timeframe on it. The e3b group has always had some less than adequate time frames assoicated with the snp's. Now, with the new snp's this situation seems to have gotten even worse.

[jaken24]

Re: Oooops forgot the DSYs

Jim, Kerry, and Bill,
Thanx all, I am so remiss; how can you or anyone else compare without the dsys? I am 4FUQP Ysearch, my 385a/b seems to throw everything into a mad flux.
At YHRD if I search without my 385a/b I have many matches in Europe, North America, and South America. Most of my matches are in Germany, however, adding the 385a/b (15/17) reduces my matches to one period just one...in Germany .
There are several 385a/b = 15/17 in the E3b project results but we are still pretty rare.

Jeff

[Jim Denning]

Jim, Kerry, and Bill,
Thanx all, I am so remiss; how can you or anyone else compare without the dsys? I am 4FUQP Ysearch, my 385a/b seems to throw everything into a mad flux.
At YHRD if I search without my 385a/b I have many matches in Europe, North America, and South America. Most of my matches are in Germany, however, adding the 385a/b (15/17) reduces my matches to one period just one...in Germany .
There are several 385a/b = 15/17 in the E3b project results but we are still pretty rare.

Jeff

QP446 is me and XQTQ3 is my son james the 8th or something like that

[KerryODair]

I have tried to summarize what I think the important points are in the article based on this thread in the forum below:
analyze the relationship among groups of populations from 9 geographic regions: western Europe (N=15), central/eastern Europe (N=16), southern Europe (N=58), Balkans (N=33), Anatolia (N=16), Middle East (N=11), north-western Africa (N=30), north-eastern Africa (N=12), and eastern Africa (N=39).

Clusters α, β and γ are typically restricted to specific geographic areas (cluster α in Europe, β in northern Africa and γ in eastern Africa), while the fourth cluster - δ - is widespread throughout Europe, west Asia and Africa, albeit at relatively low frequencies

haplotypes associated with paragroup E-M78* (predominantly observed in north-western Africa), haplogroup E-V32 (found almost exclusively in eastern Africa) and haplogroup E-V13 (the only subset of E-M78 observed in the Balkans). E-V13 is also commonly found in the populations of the central cluster, where, however, other E-M78 sub-haplogroups are also present.

The molecular survey of selected E-M78 chromosomes permitted us to reconstruct the Table 2. Relationships between microsatellite-based clusters (columns) and binary haplogroup/paragroup affiliations (rows) within haplogroup E-M78 Haplogroup Microsatellite clusters
Cluster α Cluster β Cluster γ Cluster δ Not classified Total
E-M78* 0 29 1 0 4 34
E-V12* 0 0 1 9 4 14
E-V32 0 0 34 0 0 34
E-V13 98 0 0 3 2 103
E-V22 0 0 0 45 2 47
Total 98 29 36 57 12 232
aNumber of E-M78 chromosomes identified in a global random sample of 34 01 Y chromosomes (Cruciani et al., 2004). Fisher’s exact test, P<10-3. phylogenetic relationships among the six new and the two previously described the UEPs V12, V13 and V22 define first order branches of haplogroup E-M78, while M148, M224, V32, V27 and V19 define terminal nodes.

cluster y in is characterized by the short 11-repeat allele at the DYS19 locus, which is most likely generated by a multiple-repeat deletion event.

Coalescence ages for the well-defined E-M78 clusters α, β and γ here analyzed have. been estimated and reported to be relatively old (in the range of 3.2-12.9 ky, including 95% CIs) (Cruciani et al., 2004).

Taking into account the above data, the previously described European cluster α and the northern African cluster β are indeed confirmed as monophyletic groups of chromosomes, that, very likely, have their own defining binary marker yet to be discovered. Cluster α chromosomes constitute a major branch of the binary haplogroup V13, which, in turn, includes also a few, highly differentiated chromosomes - previously classified either in cluster δ or unclassified. All 29 chromosomes within cluster β belong to the paragroup E-M78*, which is relatively rare and almost exclusively restricted to a single geographic region (i.e. northern Africa), thus a common origin for at least a large part of these is likely.


I think one thing that I wish was different in this study, the small sample from Western Europe. I have a selfish bias here, but it seems this is a relatively small number. 81 of the people tested are from Africa which represents 35% of the study and 65% come from the European continent. The western Europe sample represents only 6.5%. I know there are a lot of e3b’s m78 in the British Isles so why such a small sample. Based on these samples one would think they have established some modals for these new snp’s. Give me more data please.

[Jim Denning]

[B]

I think one thing that I wish was different in this study, the small sample from Western Europe. I have a selfish bias here, but it seems this is a relatively small number. 81 of the people tested are from Africa which represents 35% of the study and 65% come from the European continent. The western Europe sample represents only 6.5%. I know there are a lot of e3b’s m78 in the British Isles so why such a small sample. Based on these samples one would think they have established some modals for these new snp’s. Give me more data please.

three words probably the british navy or importing spanish jews by the normans.

i am intrigued at how they got to adargh longford ireland
the center of ireland

[Jim Denning]

I have tried to summarize what I think the important points are in the article based on this thread in the forum below:
analyze the relationship among groups of populations from 9 geographic regions: western Europe (N=15), central/eastern Europe (N=16), southern Europe (N=58), Balkans (N=33), Anatolia (N=16), Middle East (N=11), north-western Africa (N=30), north-eastern Africa (N=12), and eastern Africa (N=39).


Taking into account the above data, the previously described European cluster α and the northern African cluster β are indeed confirmed as monophyletic groups of chromosomes, that, very likely, have their own defining binary marker yet to be discovered. Cluster α chromosomes constitute a major branch of the binary haplogroup V13, which, in turn, includes also a few, highly differentiated chromosomes - previously classified either in cluster δ or unclassified. All 29 chromosomes within cluster β belong to the paragroup E-M78*, which is relatively rare and almost exclusively restricted to a single geographic region (i.e. northern Africa), thus a common origin for at least a large part of these is likely.


I think one thing that I wish was different in this study, the small sample from Western Europe. I have a selfish bias here, but it seems this is a relatively small number. 81 of the people tested are from Africa which represents 35% of the study and 65% come from the European continent. The western Europe sample represents only 6.5%. I know there are a lot of e3b’s m78 in the British Isles so why such a small sample. Based on these samples one would think they have established some modals for these new snp’s. Give me more data please.

since e3b is a major part of the hebrew [jewish] genetics why arent figures given for them or would they be n-11

[KerryODair]

I am still griping about the age dates for the a,b, and y cluster. The date range is between 10,900 b.c. to 1200 b.c. That is a pretty large number to look at in terms of a historical standpoint. I still am having a hard time understanding why they can't pin point a closer timeline for these snp's. With all the testing they have done it seems the time clock could be established with finer stratification then what they are showing. Maybe I am expecting to much to soon with this new science.