Pedigree Chart versus Haplogrouping

[Jane Ryan]

Jen,

A good analogy to explain the relationship between the pedigree chart and genetic information, is like the kite and the wind. Without the wind the kite can not fly, and without the pedigree chart information, the genetic information does not provide any historical information.

Jane

[GvdM]

Someone please shoot me

[GvdM]

BTW Jane, That was not a comment about what you said but that this thread has reared it's ugly head again......

[Stevo]

Genetic information does indeed provide historical information because haplogroups have histories. In that sense it is macro-history.

Keeping in my mind that history is written, genetic testing does not provide one with an individual written record of his or her ancestry in terms of names and dates and places. In that sense it is not micro-history.

But it is micro-anthropological, as well as macro-historical.

Please don't tell me that "Jane Ryan" is just "Jenifer Johnson" resurrected, however. That would be macro-bad.

[Jenifer Johnson]

Hi Jane,

Yes that is a good analogy. But in addition to that, my main point is about making assertions with the lack of information that can never be found, because the past is lost forever, makes one a fraud and a charlatan making their claims a joke.

Is DNA testing just snake oil?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110006832


How African Are You?
What genealogical testing can't tell you.
http://www.slate.com/id/2138059/


"From a practical point of view, that is the biggest problem with today's genetic genealogy tests. In many cases, they can't tell you what you don't already know."

[Eki]

Hi Jane,

Yes that is a good analogy. But in addition to that, my main point is about making assertions with the lack of information that can never be found, because the past is lost forever, makes one a fraud and a charlatan making their claims a joke.

Is DNA testing just snake oil?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110006832


How African Are You?
What genealogical testing can't tell you.
http://www.slate.com/id/2138059/


"From a practical point of view, that is the biggest problem with today's genetic genealogy tests. In many cases, they can't tell you what you don't already know."

DNA testing told mr. gates a lot he didn't know about. And it has told me a lot I didn't know. It has told me that my Y-chromosome came to Finland probably from Norway maybe about 1000 years ago. The paper trail goes only to the 1700s.

http://www.slate.com/id/2138059/

How African Are You?
What genealogical testing can't tell you.
By John Hawks
Updated Wednesday, March 15, 2006, at 1:43 PM ET

"Henry Louis Gates Jr. Click image to expand.Henry Louis Gates Jr.Recently on PBS's "African American Lives," host Henry Louis Gates had his DNA tested to learn about his ancestry. Gates' family suspected its paternal ancestry could be traced to a white slave owner. But DNA testing showed that his Y chromosome did not match the man's white descendants. A second, newer test gave Gates another result he didn't expect: His DNA showed that only half of Gates' ancestry was African. The rest were apparently European. "

[paitenceofjob]

I've been reading threads here since 2002-2003, and I've never seen a thread take on a sour note as did the last Pedigree Chart versus Haplogrouping thread. Hopefully, this one will turn out better. I also read threads at Genforum's DNA web page, and lo behold, the Pedigree Chart Versus Haplogrouping thread is there too. It was almost, but not quite as sour, claiming that the regular FTDNA forum posters are abusing some poster because they didn't like or could not adequately respond to his or her thread challenging the whole premise of genetic genealogy. That thread, like the last one that was over here of this title, contained some ad hominem attacks, legal threats, demands for ISP numbers, etc. It's difficult for people to have a rational discussion in that kind of atmosphere.

We have two new posters in this forum, and I see the only threads they have posted to so far has been Pedigree Chart Versus Haplogrouping I and / or Pedigree Chart Versus Haplogrouping II. Jennifer and Jane, perhaps, you have already been reading other threads here, but if not, I highly recommend it. I believe you will find there are many posters here who accurately explain to people considering genetic genealogy what they can reasonable expect with their genetic testing results. Some, in my opinion, lean on the conservative side with their descriptions. In addition, you will find many recommendations for research articles and books, which are much more insightful in regard to the studies of haplogroups and what information they might convey than a Wall Street Jorunal editorial. Last but not least, you will find particpants of surname projects who spend many hours studying their pedigrees and analyzing genetic data. In fact, there are many surname projects, more projects than particpants in these forums. Some of those projects have few particpants, some of them are huge, with many subgroups and sub-branches. But many of them I have seen have both pedigrees and genetic information with which they use to make reasonable assertions. Some of them, keep their pedigrees private for the members in their own family projects, but I expect they are doing the same.

As for the argument that someone with no pedigree will find no value in genetic testing, I disagree. It just depends on what someone is looking for. Some are satisfied with the haplogroup information. They get out the old maps and trace for their families their paternal ancestry's journey from Africa to beyond. Some, especially with a common surname, or whose surname has a large project, may find what family branch to which they belong. So, in my opinion, that's value if the person values that information. But more often than not, from my casual observation, most participants are amateur genealogists with pedigrees who have a particular genealogical question or more to answer. Often, those questions are clearly answered. Sometimes, the answer is a bit more ambiguous (e.g, 32/37 or 33/37) match for same surname. Despite the chance of getting ambiguous results, most particpants seem to know how to ask the right questions and which questions might be answerable using a genetic test. And sometimes, some folks just get lucky bonuses.

Good luck-- I hope this thread goes better than the last.