Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Non-paternity Event?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Non-paternity Event?

    Myself and another Gates have documentary "proof" of our lineage to a common ancestor, a Stephen Gates, who immigrated to Hingham, MA, in 1638. But, our 12 marker Y-DNA results are off by a genetic distance of two, meaning we are probably not related. It seems to me that this could indicate two possible explanations:

    1. A non-paternity event (infidelity or adoption). However, it would seem to me that such a non-paternity event would mean that our DNA would be at a much greater genetic distance than two, since the father of one child would not be evenly closely related to the rest of the lineage.

    2. Two mutations have occurred in the 400 years or 8 generations. One mutation could have occurred in one branch and another mutation in a separate branch. Again, this seems highly unlikely as mutations don't typically happen that frequently.

    I would be interested in hearing from anyone that might be able to explain this situation.

  • #2
    Originally posted by James A. Gates
    Myself and another Gates have documentary "proof" of our lineage to a common ancestor, a Stephen Gates, who immigrated to Hingham, MA, in 1638. But, our 12 marker Y-DNA results are off by a genetic distance of two, meaning we are probably not related. It seems to me that this could indicate two possible explanations:

    1. A non-paternity event (infidelity or adoption). However, it would seem to me that such a non-paternity event would mean that our DNA would be at a much greater genetic distance than two, since the father of one child would not be evenly closely related to the rest of the lineage.

    2. Two mutations have occurred in the 400 years or 8 generations. One mutation could have occurred in one branch and another mutation in a separate branch. Again, this seems highly unlikely as mutations don't typically happen that frequently.

    I would be interested in hearing from anyone that might be able to explain this situation.
    I really don't think you can tell much at 12 markers. You two need to go out to at least 37. If you are still only 2 off at that point, well, that's pretty doggoned good.

    Are you off on fast mutators or slow mutators?

    You two are close enough that if I were you I would want to upgrade to at least 37 markers (67 would be even better).

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by James A. Gates
      Myself and another Gates have documentary "proof" of our lineage to a common ancestor, a Stephen Gates, who immigrated to Hingham, MA, in 1638. But, our 12 marker Y-DNA results are off by a genetic distance of two, meaning we are probably not related. It seems to me that this could indicate two possible explanations:

      1. A non-paternity event (infidelity or adoption). However, it would seem to me that such a non-paternity event would mean that our DNA would be at a much greater genetic distance than two, since the father of one child would not be evenly closely related to the rest of the lineage.

      2. Two mutations have occurred in the 400 years or 8 generations. One mutation could have occurred in one branch and another mutation in a separate branch. Again, this seems highly unlikely as mutations don't typically happen that frequently.

      I would be interested in hearing from anyone that might be able to explain this situation.

      A distance of 2 at fast moving markers is possible. If they are slow moving markers I would be surprized. I would lean to an upgraded test to 37-markers. If you drift further apart, say 5 or more markers I would think along the lines of a non-paental event.

      When you say documentary proof of the linage are we talking actual paper documents, birth records, land deeds and the like, unbroken for every generation rather than gedcoms and other online sources which are not reliable.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stevo
        I really don't think you can tell much at 12 markers. You two need to go out to at least 37. If you are still only 2 off at that point, well, that's pretty doggoned good.

        Are you off on fast mutators or slow mutators?

        You two are close enough that if I were you I would want to upgrade to at least 37 markers (67 would be even better).
        Great minds think alike

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GvdM
          Great minds think alike
          Amen!

          I'm so hungry for a match I emailed a guy who has a variant of my surname because we are 4 off at 12 markers! (He only tested for 12.)

          We are off by 3 on one fast-mutating marker (385b) and by 1 on another fast mutator (439). Otherwise our haplotypes are exactly the same for the first 12 markers. He has a variant of my surname, and his ancestor comes from a part of Pennsylvania during a time period when I know my family resided there. According to the Infinite Allele method of calculating genetic distance, we are only 2 off.

          The man never answered my email asking him to consider upgrading.

          I would be chomping at the bit if I had a match that was 2 off at 12 markers with someone with a variant of my surname.
          Last edited by Stevo; 3 July 2006, 08:41 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stevo
            Amen!

            I'm so hungry for a match I emailed a guy who has a variant of my surname because we are 4 off at 12 markers! (He only tested for 12.)
            I am still waiting on my first 12 of 67. My 2nd cousin has a haplogroup of R1b1-HIM. Closest he has at 12 is a gd of 4 by the time he hits 37 closest is 10. We are thinking alien intervention

            Comment


            • #7
              James -

              I just took a look at the Gates entries in Ysearch. You two guys are both I1b2a, which is not a common y-haplogroup. I would be willing to bet you are related and that your match will hold up at 37 markers.

              I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think so.

              Looks like only one of you needs to upgrade, as well (that would be you, James).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GvdM
                I am still waiting on my first 12 of 67. My 2nd cousin has a haplogroup of R1b1-HIM. Closest he has at 12 is a gd of 4 by the time he hits 37 closest is 10. We are thinking alien intervention
                I have only eight 12-marker matches and, of course, none at 37. Eight matches at 12 markers is pretty uncommonly low for an R1b1c. Some of us have hundreds and hundreds of them.

                You are still awaiting your first 12 markers?

                Hope they come soon.
                Last edited by Stevo; 3 July 2006, 08:57 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  I have only eight 12-marker matches and, of course, none at 37. Eight matches at 12 markers is pretty uncommon for an R1b1c. Some of us have hundreds and hundreds of them.

                  You are still awaiting your first 12 markers?

                  Hope they come soon.
                  Yeah.. I have been too busy taking care of the surname project and everything else in the world and my test kept getting put off. I went full boat though with 67. I should start getting something any day now. It went into QC 2 weeks ago.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GvdM
                    Yeah.. I have been too busy taking care of the surname project and everything else in the world and my test kept getting put off. I went full boat though with 67. I should start getting something any day now. It went into QC 2 weeks ago.
                    So the entry with your surname that I have seen in the R1b Project is your 2nd cousin?

                    What batch is your test in?

                    I'm seriously considering upgrading to 67 markers, but it's not an easy decision. I wonder if it's worth it.

                    I just did the Deep SNP-R1b thing and got most of my results back. I am a confirmed R1b1c in green and everything!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stevo
                      So the entry with your surname that I have seen in the R1b Project is your 2nd cousin?

                      What batch is your test in?

                      I'm seriously considering upgrading to 67 markers, but it's not an easy decision. I wonder if it's worth it.
                      Yeah, that would be Al's. There is a van der Merwe also but that is so far out there is no relation. We figure maybe one of our ancestors took a leak on a rock and some splashed on the other guy.... Just joking before I get called on the carpet for that one.....

                      Batch 155 so the 12 should be anyday from what I have seen as normal in my project. 37 within about 7 to 10 more and infinate for the 67

                      I'm really not too fussed. the family has always been close so if we are out more that 66-67 I will be surprised.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GvdM
                        Yeah, that would be Al's. There is a van der Merwe also but that is so far out there is no relation. We figure maybe one of our ancestors took a leak on a rock and some splashed on the other guy.... Just joking before I get called on the carpet for that one.....

                        Batch 155 so the 12 should be anyday from what I have seen as normal in my project. 37 within about 7 to 10 more and infinate for the 67

                        I'm really not too fussed. the family has always been close so if we are out more that 66-67 I will be surprised.
                        You know, I have some Netherlands ancestry, too. My gggg-grandmother was Amanda Snedeker, from an old New Netherlands family that included surnames like Van Arsdalen, Wyckoff, Quick, and Kronkheit.

                        I still am not sure who her husband was. The paper trail on my y-line goes back only as far as Amanda's son, my ggg-grandfather.

                        Our surname is Stevens, which is also common in the Netherlands. I emailed a few guys with my surname in the Netherlands and asked them to consider dna testing, but I never heard anything back.

                        Anyway, there was a German family next door to the Snedekers who had anglicized their surname from Stephan to Stevens. I suspect they might house my y-dna, but I haven't been able to confirm it yet.

                        But who knows?
                        Last edited by Stevo; 3 July 2006, 09:24 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Rich,

                          Have you used http://www.genlias.nl ?

                          Great source for vital records in the Netherlands. Could get some leads there. Just remember to leave out van, van der, de, den and the like since they are a surname prefix and do not always come up in searches...

                          ex. I always search with Merwede rather than van der Merwede

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GvdM
                            Rich,

                            Have you used http://www.genlias.nl ?

                            Great source for vital records in the Netherlands. Could get some leads there. Just remember to leave out van, van der, de, den and the like since they are a surname prefix and do not always come up in searches...

                            ex. I always search with Merwede rather than van der Merwede
                            Thanks, George. I saved that site to my favorites. I will check it out.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stevo
                              Thanks, George. I saved that site to my favorites. I will check it out.
                              If you need translation let me know. I'm sure you'll figure it out though

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X