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The descendants of the prophet Mohammad

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  • #46
    Mohand:

    regarding the movement of E3b's from Ethiopia around 13K years ago, the source is the following paper by Cruciani:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

    Regarding the origin of Afro Asiatic languages, josh will know. But anyway, I think the main point is that Ethiopia has the largest number and variety of diverse Afro-Asiatic languages, so it is a likely place of origin. Afro Asiatic languages are a diverse group, comprising Semitic languages, Ku****ic (sudan), Berber and coptic/ancient egyptian. Strictly semitic languages include Arabic, Hebrew, and ancient Akkadian (=Babylon) and Aramaic. Most likely, this Semitic group arose in the Middle East.

    The following genetics paper talks about Ethiopia and has a brief discussion on Afro-Asiatic languages on page 753 (although, being a genetics paper, it may not the best for linguistics):
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../41578.web.pdf

    cacio

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    • #47
      Mohand, in the Ftdna Ydna library see articles by Cruciani (2004) and Semino (2004) for a discussion of Eb3. Also see article by J.R. Luis and collaborators, "The Levant Vs The Horn Of Africa : Evidence For Bi-Directional Corridors of Human Migration" in the American Journal Of Human Genetics (2004).

      For a discussion of the origin of Afroasiatic languages see Nicholas Wade's, "Before The Dawn- Recovering The Lost History Of Our Ancestors" ( 2006, Ch. 10, Language). The primary source is Christopher Ehret's "Language and History" in Heine & Nurse (Eds.), "African Languages" (2000).
      Last edited by josh w.; 7 July 2006, 07:19 PM.

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      • #48
        Sorry, Cacio already mentioned the Cruciani article.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by josh w.
          Sorry, Cacio already mentioned the Cruciani article.
          Thank you guys.

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          • #50
            My y-DNA 12-marker results were published last Saturday. I have uploaded them to ysearch under the ID EDHG7. It turns out to be that I have a one step mutation from the Cohen Modal Haplotype @ DYS 388, which is not surprising since my last name implies that I descend from the ancient tribe of Beni Shaiban who are also believed to be descendants of Ishmael and the common ancestor with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is believed to be Nizar son of Ma'ad son of Adnan.
            Last edited by Shaibani; 12 July 2006, 06:23 AM.

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            • #51
              Shaibani: The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) was first published in 1997 in a paper "Y Chromosomes of Jewish Priests" by Michael F. Hammer et al in 1997.

              The CMH was based on a 6-marker STR test, with the following values:
              DYS388=16, DYS390=23, YS391=10, DYS392=11, DYS393=12, DYS19/394=14 (also known as DYS19).

              As you would agree, 6 markers can just about establish a general trend in terms of ancestry and, also localise lineages on a geographical basis. The CMH falls in several clades of J including J*, J1 and J2 (as well as further sub-clades), implying considerable genetic diversity amongst the Cohanim based on six markers. It is no wonder that 6-marker Cohanim share ancestry with Arabs like you. Perhaps a 25- or 37-marker high resolution CMH would be the determinant of who is actually a "true" Cohen. I am, however, not very knowledgeable about developments in this area.

              Your 12-marker result does, however, reinforce the tradition of all Semites being brothers at large. Here's to all Semites: May be Peace be upon you!

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              • #52
                Peace Kaiser,

                As you have pointed out that the CMH falls into several clades, but is this a matter of convergence from different branches of the lineage such that they resemble each other but only one branch contains the "true" Cohen lineage?

                FTDNA predicts my haplogroup to be J2, and according to Coffman " Although you can have the CMH in either J1 or J2, it is the genetic signature in J1 that is considered the Jewish priestly signature" - [A Mosaic of people: The jewish story and a reassesment of the DNA evidence]

                Mohammed.

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                • #53
                  Shaibani, salaam: As I had stated before, the CMH was based on just six markers back in 1997 and encompassed men from J*, J1 & J2. Remember at that time, these clades were lumped together under Hg-9, as the Y-Haplogroup Tree was firmed up only after the YCC-2003. Efforts were then made to resolve the CMH at higher resolution and assign a specific sub-clade. You are right that J-1 turns out to be the one where most of the CMHs converge to, but I am not sure at what resolution (how many markers).

                  As an aside, you must have read in one of my previous posts, one J1 CMH was identified (2006), in Baluchistan, Pakistan and another in India, based on a 10-marker study which of course includes the original 1997 six markers.

                  Also, J2 has a prevalence of about 8.5% in Pakistan and 3.2% in India according to Sahoo's study of 2006.

                  One more: check out this pretty artistic J2 phylogeography map by Relative Genetics:-
                  http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...2_large_RG.jpg
                  Last edited by Kaiser; 13 July 2006, 08:07 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Shaibani:

                    I don't know how predictable the different subgroups of J are given only 12 STR markers. So may be you want to consider a SNP test for the subclade of J. Note that there are also further subgroups of J1/J2 (eg J2a1 etc.), which you can discovered with such a test. Some companies offer various tests for J, eg the following:
                    http://www.ethnoancestry.com/prod15.html

                    Some data on the frequency of J subclades (as reported also by Kaiser) can be found in the following paper:
                    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...867/40867.html

                    This paper is very difficult to read, but table 2 is informative (note M172=J2, M267=J1)

                    cacio

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                    • #55
                      Shaibani:

                      this is a link to a blog that casts doubt of the identification of Cohen with J1, and refers to more data of CMH in J2. It seems the identification Cohen=CMH=J1 comes from a 2001 Nebel paper which is linked in the blog:

                      http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11...age-cohen.html

                      A further blog provides more data:
                      http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/12...haplotype.html

                      cacio

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                      • #56
                        To complicate matters, as dentate has noted, there were competing groups of Cohen priests . The "true" Cohen haplogroup may never be determined.

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                        • #57
                          Beni hilal tribe

                          [QUOTE=Shaibani]Mohanad1978,

                          I am not aware of a project for North Africa, it is possible to create one if you believe you will find enough participants.

                          cacio,

                          I understand that some Syeds's ancestors could well have been non-Arabs and that their ancestors might have acquired the title for one reason or the other, but to limit the project to Saudi Arabia or GCC counrties would do injustice to Arabs whose ancestors have migrated outside these countries. You have the Arab tribes of Yemen, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Palestine, Sinai, the Ahwaz area in Iran, the Beni Hilal of North Africa, the Arabs of south Turkey, the Syeds and Sharifs also in these countries and others.

                          QUOTE]

                          Hi Shaibani,

                          As Mohanad I am from North Africa and my Y-dna haplogroup J1 seems to link me more to the arab tribes than the north african berbers (haplogroup E M81). My family name is known to be part of the Beni Hilal tribes that served the Bey of Tunis from the 16th century. I know this tribe migrated from Arabia into North Africa in the 11th century. Do you know exactly in which part of Arabia they come from ?

                          PS: I also joined the arabian peninsula project

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                          • #58
                            Josh, thanks for remembering that fact about rival Cohanim in ancient times. This is very similar to the "cultural affiliation" mentioned above, and no doubt explains the presence of R1a1 among Jewish Levites. But some Jews have been as reluctant to come to terms with these findings as Sharifs and Syeds might be to learn their own genetic identities vis-a-vis the Prophet (pbuh). There are those (president of FTDNA included) who are utterly convinced that the "true" CMH is in J1, but there is a disproportionate though smaller number of J2 individuals claiming Cohen status, so the matter may never be resolved.

                            I agree with all those who stated above that the best way to determine the haplogroup and haplotype/genetic signature of Mohammed (pbuh) would be to start with Arabian families claiming descent from him and to collect sufficient numbers of them to be able to identify a modal pattern if one exists.

                            While J1 or J2 seem most likely on a statistical basis, one cannot be certain. Thomas Jefferson was apparently from haplogroup K2, which no one would ever have imagined; and there are Jews and men in the Middle East who are R2, which is supposedly Indian. Since we will never have usable tissue samples from men who lived 1300 years ago, at best only a statistical probability will ever come of this.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by dentate
                              I agree with all those who stated above that the best way to determine the haplogroup and haplotype/genetic signature of Mohammed (pbuh) would be to start with Arabian families claiming descent from him and to collect sufficient numbers of them to be able to identify a modal pattern if one exists.
                              .
                              In Topkapi palace in Turkey I visited the chambers of the scared relics and I was surprised to find exposed some hairs from the beard of the prophet Muhammed (asws). It is not fake it should certainly be a faster way.

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                              • #60
                                I want to hear from Syeds from around the world

                                Salam Aleikum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatu,

                                I have started a project for descendants of Imam Ali from all over the world and I have gotten more diversity in results than I had expected. I suggest everyone who believes that they are a descendant to do a SNP test to determine their haplogroup. While, STR markers might match, the haplogroup will determine if you are related or not. If anyone is in the J*, J1, or J2 haplogroup and are documented, please contact me so we can discuss the results.

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