The descendants of the prophet Mohammad

[mohand1978]

Hello
My name is Mohand, I live in France, my parents are from North Africa.
As you know certainly, there are a lot of released genetic studies concerning the ancestors of north African people (Arab-speaking and Berber-speaking), all this studies reach the same conclusion: the arabization of north Africa was cultural and linguistic not demographic. Even if most of Moroccans, Algerian and Tunisian are Arab-speaking and feel Arabs, they have all Berber ancestors. Nevertheless, governments in North Africa are still teaching at schools that we are Arabs genetically speaking (descendant of Arab Bedouins that came from Middle east).
Moreover there are in north Africa a lot of people arguing that they descend from the holy prophet Mohammad. I would like to know if it exists a genetic test such as the Cohen test, that can prove that.
If not I can suggest the Family Tree DNA organisation to create this project, I am sure it will be very lucrative.
The concept of the project will be to compare the Y haplogroup of people living in Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Jordan, Palestine, Syria who argue that they are the descendants of the prophet.
I am sure we could identify the Y chromosome signature of the prophet Mohammad.

[Stevo]

Mohammed had, if I recall correctly, only one son who survived infancy, Abdullah. Mohammed's son Al Qasim died at age two. There was another boy born to the Prophet, but that son died as a baby, as well. Correct me if I am wrong about this information.

Did Abdullah have any sons who survived to have sons?

I know that Mohammed was survived by his daughter Fatima and her children. Does she have any known, confirmed descendants?

Sorry. At one time I read a lot about Mohammed and the history of Islam, but I have forgotten much of it.

[mohand1978]

Mohammed had, if I recall correctly, only one son who survived infancy, Abdullah. Mohammed's son Al Qasim died at age two. There was another boy born to the Prophet, but that son died as a baby, as well. Correct me if I am wrong about this information.

Did Abdullah have any sons who survived to have sons?

I know that Mohammed was survived by his daughter Fatima and her children. Does she have any known, confirmed descendants?

Sorry. At one time I read a lot about Mohammed and the history of Islam, but I have forgotten much of it.

Hello,
You are right, the prophet son died at early age.
I am sorry to have not been clear with you.
People who argue to descend from the prophet Mohammad are called SHARAF in the Arab countries. They may not have the Y chromosome of the prophet but the Y chromosome of Ali his gender.
So the descendant of the Prophet are the descendant of Ali. So we can identify the Ali Y chromosome.

[Stevo]

Hello,
You are right, the prophet son died at early age.
I am sorry to have not been clear with you.
People who argue to descend from the prophet Mohammad are called SHARAF in the Arab countries. They may not have the Y chromosome of the prophet but the Y chromosome of Ali his gender.
So the descendant of the Prophet are the descendant of Ali. So we can identify the Ali Y chromosome.

Ah. It is coming back to me now.

Thanks, Mohand!

[Kaiser]

Prophet Muhammad's Y-Line

Mohand, you have touched upon a very interesting topic which I have been keenly pursuing, but with limited success. So far, very little work has been done on this subject. As is known, Prophet Muhammad had no male descendants who survived infancy. However, his nephew (paternal uncle's son) Ali, had male progeny which survives and and its members are known mostly by the following family names in different parts of the Islamic world:

1) "al-Sharif" (as in late King Hussein's clan)
2) "al-Quraish", the tribe to which Prophet Muhammad belonged
3) "Hashmi" (aka Hashemite) ie, those belonging to the "Banu Hashim" clan of al-Quraish tribe
4) "Syed", a common generic surname of anyone claiming to be of Prophet Muhammad's progeny

Now, the problem posed by you could have a simple solution if people with the above surnames were tested and found to have a common lineage (read haplotype). That haplotype, would IN ALL PROBABILITY, be the Y-Line of the Prophet. (This is analogous to the deduction about Genghis Khan's Y-line belonging to Haplogroup C-3, M217).

The fact of the matter is that very little testing has been done. I know of only two members of the 'al-Sharif' family on 'ySearch' whose DNA testing has been done as part of a Swedish study. Incredibly, however, an al-Quraish MODAL HAPLOTYPE (most common) has been declared. I am not sure how many subjects have been tested in this study, but to arrive at a modal haplotype declaration, AT LEAST 100 subjects would, to my estimate, be minimally adequate. Anyway, following is the so-called modal haplotype of "al-Quraish" based on 25-markers:

DYS-19 = 14 DYS-385a = 13 DYS-385b = 15 DYS-388 = 12
DYS-389i = 13 DYS-389ii = 29 DYS-390 = 21 DYS-391 = 10
DYS-392 = 11 DYS-393 = 15 DYS-426 = 11 DYS-437 = 16
DYS-439 = 11 DYS-447=24 DYS-448 = 22 DYS-449 = 29
DYS-454 = 11 DYS-455 = 11 DYS-458 = 16 DYS-459a = 9
DYS-459b = 9 DYS-464a = 12 DYS-464b = 13 DYS-464c = 14
DYS-464d = 14

The Haplogroup assigned to the above is G in one case & G-2 in the other. This group is not unusual in Middle East, though its spread is biased more towards the Caucasus.

The IDs of the above samples are AT5U9 and FXYWN on 'ySearch'.

Now an interesting aside to the same. I had a discussion on the subject with one of the leading geneticists of my country Pakistan, who had carried out a study of many males who claimed to be "Syeds". Incredibly, he reports ELEVEN grossly different haplotypes amongst these 'nobles'. What it implies is that borrowing/hijacking of famous surnames has been, historically, a practice in this part of the world (and perhaps other places too). The geneticist that I am referring to is world-reknown and he prefers not to be quoted on this finding of his, as he does not want to be embroiled in a controversy that can inflame passions in no time. He says light-heartedly that his being a Syed (his surname) is also in question now!

Nevertheless, my hunch is that the further away from the Arab/Islamic heartland, ie Saudi Arabia, you go, the more 'varieties' of Sharifs, Syeds, Hashmis and Qureshis would spring up. If this observation of mine has some substance, I think that the purest line would be that of the Arabian peninsula males who call themselves by any of the above surnames. Yes, it would be worthwhile to test at least a 100 of them, and then arrive at what may be called an al-Quraish haplotype. Another reason that this would be a true reflection of the al-Quraish/Hashemite/al-Sharif/Syed lineage is that Arabs, particularly those of the peninsula, are fiercely possessive about family names and are very meticulous in maintaining their lineages. It would be very difficult to switch lineages in Arabia without being ostracised socially.

Your suggestion about finding a 'Cohen' type is quite valid, if only for the limited knowledge about this aspect amongst those who have claims to this noble lineage. What is needed is a project, as you suggested. Let's see if we can get things moving by this discussion.

PS: I am an R-2 (M-124), a son-of-the-soil Pakistani, so no claims to any nobility

[Kaiser]

Al-Quraish Modal Haplotype

CAUTION: The al-Quraish haplotype is by no means the absolute determinant of Prophet Mohammed's lineage as yet, so NO CONCLUSIONS MUST BE DRAWN. Neither is the Haplogroup G-2 the final word on the Prophet's male lineage.

Just for the interest of South Asian readers G-2 (the purported al-Quraish haplogroup) has a frequency of 4.5% in Pakistan and 1.2% in India (Sengupta et al, 2006).

Kaiser

[lgmayka]

The possibility that Mohammed may have been of haplogroup G2 leads to the question: Could he have had red hair?

Besides its well-known connection to Irish and Scottish, red hair is also well-represented in the Caucasus and northern Iran--also areas of G2 concentration, I think. Red hair runs in my family, and I wonder whether it has to do with the fact that my uncle is G2, apparently descended from the Alans (< Sarmatians < Scythians) who protected southern Poland in the 5th century and then merged into the Slavic population.

[Kaiser]

Correction - Cousin not nephew

I had mistakenly typed Caliph Ali as Prophet Muhammad's nephew instead of cousin. I REGRET THE ERROR. Ali is related with Prophet Muhammad through the male line, being the Prophet's paternal uncle's son (Abu Talib's).

For Igmayka: Prophet Muhammad is not reported to have had red hair, though it is known that he used henna to dye them as he grew older. Tradition says that he had black hair.

[M.O'Connor]

I posted this article on Red hair before... http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_wtd020874.html

[Stevo]

On a somewhat different but related subject, what about Saladin?

Does he have any living descendants?

Is that something Muslims care about or consider?

Saladin was a Kurd, as I recall.

[mohand1978]

CAUTION: The al-Quraish haplotype is by no means the absolute determinant of Prophet Mohammed's lineage as yet, so NO CONCLUSIONS MUST BE DRAWN. Neither is the Haplogroup G-2 the final word on the Prophet's male lineage.

Just for the interest of South Asian readers G-2 (the purported al-Quraish haplogroup) has a frequency of 4.5% in Pakistan and 1.2% in India (Sengupta et al, 2006).

Kaiser

Hello,
Thank you very much for all this information. I would like to know if you have a copy of this study of “syed” in Pakistan.
I would like to add that the following north African family names argue to be descendant of the holy prophet:
Qadiri
Idrissi
Alaoui
Jouti
Amrani
Alami
Ouazzani
Kettani
Debagh
It will be very interesting to open a project to look for the genetic evidences between all this family through the Muslim World.
Do you know how to open a genetic worldwide project ?
Kind Regards,

[Kaiser]

Stevo, here is what I could get off the net regarding Saladin's dynasty and its end. You can make your own conclusions.

The last of Saladin's descendants was called al-Salih, and his second wife was a woman by the name of Shajarat al-Durr, which means "Tree of Pearls. In 1249, the Crusaders, led by King Louis IX of France, invaded Egypt once again. They landed at Damietta, where the Nile River meets the Mediterranean Sea. The Egyptian armies marched out to meet their enemies, and suffered defeat. At this crucial moment, al-Salih died. His older son, Turan Shah, was fighting the Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan in Iraq, and his second son was just a baby.

In this tense political environment, Shajarat al-Durr made a bold decision. She and several of her husband's advisors decided to hide the news of his death, so that the Egyptian armies would not lose hope, and so that the French would not find out that the armies were leaderless. Shajarat al-Durr worked with her husband's chief advisor to control Egypt. The armies trapped the French at a Delta town called Mansoura, and Louis IX was captured. At this point, Turan Shah returned home to claim his inheritance and was killed shortly after.

The Mamluks then asked Shajarat al-Durr to take on the role of sultana, the first time in Islamic history that a woman became the leader of a nation. She ascended to the throne in 1250. Shortly after she was appointed, she married one of the Mamluks, a man named Aibek, and she conferred the title of sultan upon him. However, Shajarat al-Durr continued to run the country, signing orders in her own name, and ruling from behind the throne.

By 1257, after several years of this, Aibek tired of being a puppet to his wife, and sought to weaken her by taking a second wife. When Shajarat al-Durr found out about his plan, she arranged to have Aibek killed. There are several stories about how she met her end. One version has her killing her husband herself, then committing suicide. Another states that Aibek's son by his first wife found out what his stepmother had done, and left her to the mercy of his mother and her handmaidens, who beat her to death and had her body hung in the streets. Regardless of which is accurate, her death marked the end of Ayyubid rule.

So if one were to track down Saladin's descendants, there would be no shortage of pretenders. A very difficult proposition indeed for DNA to track down Saladin's progeny.

[Kaiser]

Project - Holy Prophet's Lineage

Mohand, the study about Syeds in Pakistan has not been published for the reason I stated, ie it would generate too much controversy and many a Syed elite would have wind blown out of his sails.

As for starting a project, the first pre-requisite is to start a campaign laced with genetics tutorials and get all these claimants to have their DNA tested. It could be sort of a mini Genographic Project, but would need extensive funding. We would have to have at least 50-odd samples from each surname (from amongst the claimants to the Holy Prophet's lineage). I think it would add upto about 5,000 or so people who would have to be tested, if there were 100 odd claimant surnames. Perhaps some of the rich Saudi Sheikhs could cough up a few riyals for such a study.

Matters of religion are slippery turf, so one has to be careful on that account too.

[cacio]

I checked the sharif mentioned on ysearch. Interestingly, one of the two confidently states "Mecca" as origin, but is a very European haplogroup I.
There's one Pakistani Syed among my own hap L, evidently one of the 11 haplogroups of Pakistani Syeds.
Btw, is there a study on haplogroup frequencies in Arabia? I think I've seen one for Oman, but I don't recall SA.

cacio

[mohand1978]

I checked the sharif mentioned on ysearch. Interestingly, one of the two confidently states "Mecca" as origin, but is a very European haplogroup I.
There's one Pakistani Syed among my own hap L, evidently one of the 11 haplogroups of Pakistani Syeds.
Btw, is there a study on haplogroup frequencies in Arabia? I think I've seen one for Oman, but I don't recall SA.

cacio

Could you explain to me how you can chek that ?
And what do you mean by european haplogroup ?
regards,