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Which Gedmatch Admixture do you use to find Sephardic roots?

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  • #16
    To me, these results are more telling than the first ones you posted, because these show a closer distance. Now you're into the 1 point somethings whereas before it was only 5 point somethings.

    With my Uncle, I just ran a whole bunch of GEDMatch projects and then listed them from closest to farthest, trying to get a full picture of what the various projects were saying. I got his down to 0.938510 at closest, so see if you can better your results too.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RebeccaR View Post
      There is also a spreadsheet with different populations but not all the Jewish populations are listed.
      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...82Hcf/pubhtml#
      Fixing this broken link:

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...82Hcf/pubhtml#

      And you know, I just noticed on that link they have a tab to see "Jewish populations in Oracle." It's a separate tab at the top of their page.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RebeccaR View Post
        Fixing this broken link:

        https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...82Hcf/pubhtml#

        And you know, I just noticed on that link they have a tab to see "Jewish populations in Oracle." It's a separate tab at the top of their page.
        Programs are not interchangeable. It is not a matter of hit or miss. The only programs that can show clear Levantine ancestry are programs that include the Levant (East Med) as a basic component. In other words, Eurogenes, DNA Land and MO 2 with further refinement. For ancient Israel (Natufia), see Gedrosia Near East Neolithic. Oracles only provide an indirect estimate unless the Levant is a basic component. I have been correctly identified with the programs I mentioned. With the other programs identified, some have been correct, but others have identified me as Lebanese, Italian or other Med.

        For example, Dodecad is an excellent program for other purposes. However, my top ranked Oracle 4, is mainly a combination of Druze and North African Jews. The more direct tests show me to be over 90% Ashkenazi. On Dodecad, Ashkenazi does not appear until the 7th rank. There is no mystery. Dodecad is simply not precise enough. It places me in Western Asia rather than the more specific Levant.
        Last edited by josh w.; 14th January 2018, 08:10 PM.

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        • #19
          Josh, thank you for all your insight. What do you think of MyHeritage and Ancestry on their analysis of DNA in respect to Jewish populations?

          MyHeritage has Sephardic Jewish - North African (listed in North Africa but separately than North African) and Ashkenazi Jewish (listed in Europe.) Do you think they're able to correctly identify someone and place them in these categories from DNA?

          Ancestry just lists European Jewish, with six sub-categories and it shows all Ashkenazi. I don't see anything labeled Sephardic. I see Middle East with a sub-category of Syrian-Lebanese, which I think is poorly labeled, because their circle also includes Israel and Jordan and part of Iraq. So does Ancestry hit the mark or they still more to work on?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RebeccaR View Post
            Josh, thank you for all your insight. What do you think of MyHeritage and Ancestry on their analysis of DNA in respect to Jewish populations?

            MyHeritage has Sephardic Jewish - North African (listed in North Africa but separately than North African) and Ashkenazi Jewish (listed in Europe.) Do you think they're able to correctly identify someone and place them in these categories from DNA?

            Ancestry just lists European Jewish, with six sub-categories and it shows all Ashkenazi. I don't see anything labeled Sephardic. I see Middle East with a sub-category of Syrian-Lebanese, which I think is poorly labeled, because their circle also includes Israel and Jordan and part of Iraq. So does Ancestry hit the mark or they still more to work on?
            Rebecca, I have not tested with either company and cannot give a clear answer. I think My Heritage is OK. I think they have a component from the Levant but I have not been able to find their list of Founder Populations and might be incorrect--see below. My concern is that the program might suggest that Jews and other Levantines do not have the same origin in Asia

            There are problems with Ancestry. As you noted, they deliberately created a sort of Levantine region that excluded Jews. All dna research of the region indicates that this is nonsense. 'European Jews' is a misleading category since about half of the Jewish lines are from Asia. (At least DNA Land included both Europe and the Levant) In addition, European really means Ashkenazis

            Clarification, MO 2 does have a Levantine region (West Middle East). However, those with Jewish ancestry are not shown that they have Levantine ancestry----Jewish preempts Levantine ancestry. This might lead some Jews to mistakenly conclude that they do not have Levantine ancestry. Without modern dna regarding the Levant, Arthur Koestler concluded that Jews had Khazarian origins. (See Khazaria's "The Jews of Khazaria")
            Last edited by josh w.; 15th January 2018, 12:11 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
              Rebecca, I have not tested with either company and cannot give a clear answer. I think My Heritage is OK. I think they have a component from the Levant but I have not been able to find their list of Founder Populations and might be incorrect--see below. My concern is that the program might suggest that Jews and other Levantines do not have the same origin in Asia

              There are problems with Ancestry. As you noted, they deliberately created a sort of Levantine region that excluded Jews. All dna research of the region indicates that this is nonsense. 'European Jews' is a misleading category since about half of the Jewish lines are from Asia. (At least DNA Land included both Europe and the Levant) In addition, European really means Ashkenazis

              Clarification, MO 2 does have a Levantine region (West Middle East). However, those with Jewish ancestry are not shown that they have Levantine ancestry----Jewish preempts Levantine ancestry. This might lead some Jews to mistakenly conclude that they do not have Levantine ancestry. Without modern dna regarding the Levant, Arthur Koestler concluded that Jews had Khazarian origins. (See Khazaria's "The Jews of Khazaria")
              My concern about My Heritage was justified. It has separate Jewish and non Jewish Levantine (West Middle East) Founder Populations. The West Middle East samples were from Druze and Bedouins. This reflects a political rather than scientific decision. As Atzmon has shown, Druze and Jews fall within the same cluster. Druze are a bit closer to Syrian Jews as compared to European Jews but Atzmon lumped Syrian Jews and European Jews together reflecting the same origins. Bedouins are more distant from Jews, probably reflecting an Arabian component

              In terms of ancient origins, Jews, Bedouins and Druze have similar levels of a Natufian component. The Natufians were among the first settlers of the land known as Israel about 10,000 years ago.
              Last edited by josh w.; 15th January 2018, 01:28 PM.

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              • #22
                Thank you again for all of your insight, Josh. I find this all so fascinating and I am learning so much.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RebeccaR View Post
                  Thank you again for all of your insight, Josh. I find this all so fascinating and I am learning so much.
                  Thanks. I hope that I was clear that all testing companies are familiar with the research showing that Jews have Levantine origins. Some have chosen not to note the connection or wish to separate Jews from other Levantine groups.

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                  • #24
                    Which Gedmatch Admixture do you use to find Sephardic roots?

                    Yes, Josh and Rebecca, thank you both for you very informative inputs!

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                    • #25
                      Which Gedmatch Admixture do you use to find Sephardic roots?

                      Originally posted by RebeccaR View Post
                      To me, these results are more telling than the first ones you posted, because these show a closer distance. Now you're into the 1 point somethings whereas before it was only 5 point somethings.

                      With my Uncle, I just ran a whole bunch of GEDMatch projects and then listed them from closest to farthest, trying to get a full picture of what the various projects were saying. I got his down to 0.938510 at closest, so see if you can better your results too.
                      Rebecca, I did as you suggested and listed relevant Jewish Admixtures from closest to farthest and got it down to under 1! It shows an interesting history and is easier to follow I think. Not sure how far back in time this is though or how strong my Jewish ancestry is. Perhaps I should consider arranging a retrospective Bar Mitzvah

                      4.2% Morocco_Jews @ 0.77
                      4.9% Ashkenazi @ 0.79
                      2.7% Yemen_Jews @ 0.79
                      4.9% Ashkenazy_Jews @ 0.8
                      4.2% Sephardic_Jews @ 0.82
                      7.4% Jew-Iran @ 1.3
                      7.5% Jew-Iraqi @ 1.34
                      7.6% Jew_Iraqi @ 1.34
                      7.6% Jew_Kurd @ 1.36
                      7.7% Jew-Uzbekistan @ 1.41
                      7.8% Jew_Georgia @ 1.41
                      7.5% Jew_Tat @ 1.43
                      13.8% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.44
                      7.5% Jew_Azerbaijan @ 1.48
                      6.9% Iraqi_Jew @ 1.5
                      4.8% Georgian_Jew @ 1.51
                      5.5% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.57
                      58.4% Morocco_Jews @ 3.02
                      52.1% North African Jews @ 4.55
                      50% North_African_Jews @ 4.768189
                      18.8% Iraqi_Jew @ 6.24

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                      • #26
                        I have uploaded to them all.GedMatch can be very confusing.Its impossible to contact the site managers.The Eurogenes vs Dodecad gives different things.I wish they would be more approachable for help/questions.I am tired of trying to decipher all different countries on all different maps with all different companies.
                        If they would finally come up with a Sephardic separate cayegory it would
                        Make all the difference in the world.One or two do not correlate.
                        The North Africa and East West Med definitions everywhere are really out there.How can you be Moroccan,Cypriot and Italian (jews)??

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Miamio View Post
                          I have uploaded to them all.GedMatch can be very confusing.Its impossible to contact the site managers.The Eurogenes vs Dodecad gives different things.I wish they would be more approachable for help/questions.I am tired of trying to decipher all different countries on all different maps with all different companies.
                          If they would finally come up with a Sephardic separate cayegory it would
                          Make all the difference in the world.One or two do not correlate.
                          The North Africa and East West Med definitions everywhere are really out there.How can you be Moroccan,Cypriot and Italian (jews)??
                          Why are you trying to decipher these various countries on the maps provided by different companies? Each one is using different reference populations.

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                          • #28
                            Sephardic? Or other?

                            My Origins. never showed me as Sephardic. Only Southern European.
                            Others have North African.Levant,Sephardic and East Med.
                            Uploading to GedMatch is the best thing.None of the Sephardic matches replied to me.I a, having a hard enough time with my Ashkenazi matches as it is.So many think you have to have a common surname.Helllooooo?
                            Way past GTGtGt Gm Sally Doe are ones we don’t know!
                            The only way to know is to compare with the browsers to find a common ethnicity/ relative,if possible.Alot of time and work.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                              My concern about My Heritage was justified. It has separate Jewish and non Jewish Levantine (West Middle East) Founder Populations. The West Middle East samples were from Druze and Bedouins. This reflects a political rather than scientific decision. As Atzmon has shown, Druze and Jews fall within the same cluster. Druze are a bit closer to Syrian Jews as compared to European Jews but Atzmon lumped Syrian Jews and European Jews together reflecting the same origins. Bedouins are more distant from Jews, probably reflecting an Arabian component

                              In terms of ancient origins, Jews, Bedouins and Druze have similar levels of a Natufian component. The Natufians were among the first settlers of the land known as Israel about 10,000 years ago.
                              I know I am late to the conversation, but if one does show a higher percentage of Sephardic in MH's actual category (my one aunt is coming back as 14% and I am 16%), should one consider it accurate? Who was their base population? My Natufian is 46% on the Ancient Eurasian. However, gedmatch isn't quite that accurate for me, as I have a good amount of Amerindian DNA, and it seems to just screw up anything recent. My Mom and aunts have none, and are much easier to match to populations.

                              My Dad is PR, and has a Sephardic surname about 6 gens back, along with a bunch of other common names (his mtDNA is Amerindian, but his Y is R1b.....). My Mom, as far as paper is Dutch, French, Italian (Her GGM has a Sephardic surname), and English (I'm back to the 1700s for some, and farther for the Huguenots). It is so not what any admixture comes back for any of the three women I have (their MtDNA is I5a1a - mostly Caucasus). Harrapaworld is the best I can get for more modern matches, but this is my Gedrosia.

                              Using 1 population approximation:
                              1 Bulgarian @ 5.542726
                              2 Albanian @ 6.434634
                              3 Romanian @ 6.897845
                              4 Greek @ 7.065850
                              5 Sicilian @ 8.604758
                              6 Jew_Ashkenazi @ 10.047543
                              7 Croatian @ 10.108331
                              8 Italian_South @ 10.554543
                              9 Spanish @ 11.005758
                              10 Hungarian @ 12.343534
                              11 French @ 13.074499
                              12 Jew_Moroccan @ 14.093712
                              13 Czech @ 14.800515
                              14 English @ 15.120065
                              15 Jew_Libyan @ 15.135775
                              16 Ukrainian @ 15.216872
                              17 Scottish @ 15.947557
                              18 Jew_Tunisian @ 16.044716
                              19 Armenia_ChL @ 16.186666
                              20 Norwegian @ 16.437094

                              Using 2 populations approximation:
                              1 50% Jew_Libyan +50% Russian @ 2.523025


                              Using 3 populations approximation:
                              1 50% Finnish +25% Jew_Libyan +25% Levant_BA @ 2.027129


                              Using 4 populations approximation:
                              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
                              1 Anatolia_N + Egyptian + Icelandic + Steppe_IA @ 1.342590
                              2 Anatolia_N + Egyptian + Lithuanian + Steppe_IA @ 1.386894
                              3 Anatolia_N + Egyptian + Europe_LNBA + Steppe_IA @ 1.447031
                              4 BedouinA + Sardinian + Spanish + Steppe_IA @ 1.454080
                              5 BedouinA + English + Europe_EN + Steppe_IA @ 1.468688
                              6 Anatolia_N + BedouinA + Lithuanian + Steppe_IA @ 1.491607
                              7 BedouinA + Czech + Europe_EN + Steppe_IA @ 1.514210
                              8 Czech + Egyptian + Europe_EN + Steppe_IA @ 1.552682
                              9 BedouinA + Europe_EN + French + Steppe_IA @ 1.607093
                              10 Egyptian + Europe_EN + Hungarian + Steppe_IA @ 1.623214
                              11 BedouinA + Europe_EN + Hungarian + Steppe_IA @ 1.623362
                              12 Egyptian + English + Europe_EN + Steppe_IA @ 1.631285
                              13 Basque + Egyptian + Lithuanian + Turkish @ 1.655964
                              14 Anatolia_N + Egyptian + Norwegian + Steppe_IA @ 1.679626
                              15 Anatolia_N + Egyptian + Estonian + Steppe_IA @ 1.695694
                              16 Basque + Egyptian + Estonian + Turkish @ 1.698486
                              17 Croatian + Egyptian + Europe_EN + Steppe_IA @ 1.703399
                              18 Albanian + Egyptian + Romanian + Russian @ 1.709648
                              19 Egyptian + Europe_EN + French + Steppe_IA @ 1.718037
                              20 Basque + BedouinA + Sardinian + Steppe_IA @ 1.727529



                              I've not looked into the validity of H.World, but it really does help with the Amerindian:

                              Using 1 population approximation:
                              1 tuscan_hapmap @ 10.943674
                              2 tuscan_hgdp @ 10.954552
                              3 italian_hgdp @ 11.247951
                              4 tuscan_1000genomes @ 11.256651
                              5 romanian-a_behar @ 15.219808
                              6 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 16.041107
                              7 ashkenazi_harappa @ 18.001743
                              8 puerto-rican_1000genomes @ 19.255840
                              9 spaniard_behar @ 20.230761
                              10 ashkenazy-jew_behar @ 20.310314
                              11 serbian_harappa @ 20.373838
                              12 spaniard_1000genomes @ 20.999115
                              13 french_hgdp @ 23.309839
                              14 morocco-jew_behar @ 25.371098
                              15 puerto-rican_bryc @ 25.471590
                              16 sephardic-jew_behar @ 26.235680
                              17 hungarian_behar @ 26.278126
                              18 colombian_1000genomes @ 26.962152
                              19 mexican_hapmap @ 27.130453
                              20 slovenian_xing @ 28.222822

                              Using 2 populations approximation:
                              1 50% bulgarian_yunusbayev +50% puerto-rican_1000genomes @ 5.374068


                              Using 3 populations approximation:
                              1 50% ashkenazi_harappa +25% colombian_1000genomes +25% french_hgdp @ 2.281538


                              Using 4 populations approximation:
                              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                              1 ashkenazy-jew_behar + colombian_1000genomes + italian_hgdp + serbian_harappa @ 1.893174
                              2 colombian_1000genomes + cypriot_behar + italian_hgdp + n-european_xing @ 1.904701
                              3 colombian_1000genomes + druze_hgdp + spaniard_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.938654
                              4 colombian_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + sephardic-jew_behar + tuscan_hapmap @ 1.966614
                              5 colombian_1000genomes + druze_hgdp + n-european_xing + spaniard_behar @ 1.974270
                              6 colombian_1000genomes + italian_hgdp + morocco-jew_behar + serbian_harappa @ 1.996052
                              7 colombian_1000genomes + druze_hgdp + n-european_xing + spaniard_1000genomes @ 2.028759
                              8 colombian_1000genomes + morocco-jew_behar + slovenian_xing + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.030205
                              9 colombian_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + morocco-jew_behar + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.036041
                              10 basque_hgdp + druze_hgdp + hungarian_behar + mexican_hapmap @ 2.049631
                              11 ashkenazy-jew_behar + bulgarian_yunusbayev + mexican_hapmap + spaniard_behar @ 2.050598
                              12 colombian_1000genomes + druze_hgdp + spaniard_behar + utahn-white_hapmap @ 2.054883
                              13 colombian_1000genomes + druze_hgdp + spaniard_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.061468
                              14 colombian_1000genomes + druze_hgdp + french_hgdp + french_hgdp @ 2.063369
                              15 colombian_1000genomes + cypriot_behar + hungarian_behar + spaniard_behar @ 2.065049
                              16 colombian_1000genomes + sephardic-jew_behar + slovenian_xing + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.073024
                              17 colombian_1000genomes + lebanese-druze_haber + lithuanian_behar + sardinian_hgdp @ 2.077278
                              18 colombian_1000genomes + italian_hgdp + sephardic-jew_behar + serbian_harappa @ 2.089574
                              19 colombian_1000genomes + morocco-jew_behar + slovenian_xing + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.090821
                              20 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + french_hgdp + sephardic-jew_behar @ 2.090873

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