Need Advice on Next Testing Step

[keisar]

Thank you very much for your help and guidance. I've just requested joining the R1b Project. I will also consider the Big Y test vs the Y-111.

[MMaddi]

Here are the marker counts requested (among all my other):
DYS390= 23
DYS447= 25
DYS464d= 17
DYS460= 11
H4= 12 (this was as "Y-GATA-H4")

Yes, my earliest historical paternal-line ancestor is from San German, PR, who lived around 1770-1810; Simon Santiago, my GGGGG-Father

Ceasar

You have the wrong counts for DYS447, DYS464d and H4. It's extremely unlikely that you're Z8+. You also don't seem to be Z326+.

In fact, there's a possibility that you're not even U106+. If you had 67 markers, you could look at DYS492 and that would give you a good idea if you're U106+ or U106-.

The first thing that you should do, if you haven't yet, is join the R1b All Subclades Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about and get advice from the project administrators or by posting in the project activity thread. Given that it's very difficult based on your STR counts to predict your R-M269 subclade, if you want to do some SNP testing, order the right SNP pack (R1b - M343&M269v2 Backbone SNP Pack) or, much better, Big Y while it's on sale this month. SNP packs will only get you down to a subclade that's usually about 1,500-2,000 years old, sometimes a bit less. Big Y will give you SNPs that are under 1,000 years old, including some that are unique to the last several generations of your paternal line.

[keisar]

Give us the counts for the markers I mentioned. "Extremely similar" depends on what you mean by that. If you differ on just one or two of some of those specific markers, it might point more toward Z326 than Z8.

In fact, Z326 may be more likely. You mention that your paternal line is Puerto Rican. Both Z326 and Z8 are more likely to be found in northern and central Europe, not Spain. But Z8 is heavily concentrated in England, while Z326 has a wider distribution, including some Hispanic paternal lines.

Here are the marker counts requested (among all my other):
DYS390= 23
DYS447= 25
DYS464d= 17
DYS460= 11
H4= 12 (this was as "Y-GATA-H4")

Yes, my earliest historical paternal-line ancestor is from San German, PR, who lived around 1770-1810; Simon Santiago, my GGGGG-Father

Ceasar

[MMaddi]

FTDNA recommended the R1b-M343(xM269) SNP Pack but I hesitated because I did not want to waste money in case it did not cover my specific downtrace SMPs. I decided to budget for the Y67 or or Y-111 later. Based on the discussion, maybe the SMP Pack would have been a good course of action for me since I only know I am R-M269?


Ceasar

I forgot to answer your question about the SNP pack. The answer is the same one I gave Eddie43. Don't order the R1b-M343(xM269) SNP Pack! The x before M269 means it was designed for people who are M269-, but FTDNA is predicting that you're M269+.

The banner ad you're seeing for the R1b-M343(xM269) SNP Pack is an error that's been brought to FTDNA's attention. They are changing the banner ad for R-M269 men to recommend the right SNP pack, so you may see a different SNP pack recommended now.

However, given that Big Y is on sale until Aug. 31, you should consider ordering that. Read my post on Aug. 12 (#4) about why the Big Y test is a much better SNP test than any SNP pack.

[MMaddi]

Hello,


BTW, my values for the same markers were extremely similar to Ed's. Does that mean I could be Z8+ too?

Ceasar

Give us the counts for the markers I mentioned. "Extremely similar" depends on what you mean by that. If you differ on just one or two of some of those specific markers, it might point more toward Z326 than Z8.

In fact, Z326 may be more likely. You mention that your paternal line is Puerto Rican. Both Z326 and Z8 are more likely to be found in northern and central Europe, not Spain. But Z8 is heavily concentrated in England, while Z326 has a wider distribution, including some Hispanic paternal lines.

[keisar]

Hello,
My case is very similar to Ed's. In fact, I found this thread looking for an answer to the same question. I'll use Ed's presentation format (!):
My Y-37 results gave a predicted paternal haplogroup R-M269.

I have only four matches at 25 marker (none at 37), two from Puerto Rico (like me) and two of Anglo ancestry from the USA.

My goal is to find my earliest historic paternal ancestor, which currently dates to 1790. I am finding this harder to accomplish since I am realizing many people I have contacted in my Project don't know their genealogy! (or don't want to go beyond finding out they are not jewish or have too much of something else they don't like!!!).

FTDNA recommended the R1b-M343(xM269) SNP Pack but I hesitated because I did not want to waste money in case it did not cover my specific downtrace SMPs. I decided to later budget for the Y67 or Y-111. Based on the discussion, maybe the SMP Pack would have been a good course of action for me since I only know I am R-M269?

BTW, my values for the same markers were extremely similar to Ed's. Does that mean I could be Z8+ too?

Ceasar

[Eddie43]

I was able to change the Y111 to Big Y this morning, so looks like about seven to ten weeks before I get any new results.

[Eddie43]

Thank you for your guidance. I will call Monday and see if I can upgrade to big Y.

Ed

[MMaddi]

I should have waited for your reply. I had already ordered the Y111 upgrade. Would you recommend going ahead with the Z8 SNP test? Then perhaps Big Y when it goes on sale again?

Is there any advantage to the order in which the SNP and Big Y tests are done?

At the moment, Y111 may give you better matches to work with than a SNP test. In the long run, as more men have taken Big Y, you may get a Big Y match who shares several SNPs unique to recent generations of your paternal line. As I wrote above, the surname of such a match may be the surname of your father's biological father.

As far as SNP testing, if you plan to order Big Y at some point, ordering a SNP pack is a waste of money. A Big Y test will give you the same results as the appropriate SNP pack, plus your most recent SNPs, which aren't known yet. You would be paying twice for the same SNP results.

But you can make a case for ordering Big Y instead of the upgrade to 111 markers. Big Y SNPs are more reliable for dating than STR markers are. But the database has more men with 67 or 111 marker results than Big Y results, so factor that in.

Basically, you can stick with the upgrade to 111 and plan to get Big Y during the holiday sale, although you may pay slightly more than the current sale price. Or you can contact FTDNA on Monday and change your order, canceling your upgrade to 111 and ordering Big Y. You'll owe them the difference between the two prices.

FTDNA does allow customers to cancel or change orders up to the point they've been assigned to a testing batch. They batch orders every Monday and Wednesday at the end of the business day, Central Time. So, if you do want to change your order, call them first thing Monday morning (9 am, Central Time), before the lines are all busy. The phone number is (713) 868-1438.

[Eddie43]

I should have waited for your reply. I had already ordered the Y111 upgrade. Would you recommend going ahead with the Z8 SNP test? Then perhaps Big Y when it goes on sale again?

Is there any advantage to the order in which the SNP and Big Y tests are done?

[MMaddi]

Thanks for your reply. I found it very clear and understandable, given my limited knowledge.

I will start with upgrading to 67 or 11 markers.

I will have to learn about the +/- significance and how to follow the Y chromosome tree to the right points. I may come back with some questions regarding choosing a SNP test later.

Here are the values for the markers you asked about:

DYS390=23
DYS447=24
DYS464d=18
DYS460=11
H4=10

Thanks,

Ed

With those marker counts, it's very likely that you're Z8+. If you do decide to do some SNP testing, my suggestion is to go straight to the Z8 SNP pack and bypass the more upstream SNP packs.

Of course, if you are interested in finding matches with whom you share a common paternal line ancestor within the last 300 years or less, then Big Y would be a better SNP test. It's able to find previously unknown SNPs that are unique to your paternal line in the last few hundred years. If someone else who's Z8+ has taken Big Y and shares several of these unique SNPs with you, that may give you a clue as to the surname of the biological father of your adopted father.

There's no guarantee that someone has already taken Big Y who would be this type of match to you. However, taking Big Y would position you to find such a match in the future as more men take the test. Big Y is on sale for $395, the lowest price ever, until Aug. 31. It will likely be on sale again from mid November to Dec. 31, although we don't know at this point what the sale price will be.

[Eddie43]

Thanks for your reply. I found it very clear and understandable, given my limited knowledge.

I will start with upgrading to 67 or 11 markers.

I will have to learn about the +/- significance and how to follow the Y chromosome tree to the right points. I may come back with some questions regarding choosing a SNP test later.

Here are the values for the markers you asked about:

DYS390=23
DYS447=24
DYS464d=18
DYS460=11
H4=10

Thanks,

Ed

[MMaddi]

You can join the R1b-U106 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about based on your R-L48 haplogroup assignment at 23andMe. (L48 is the major subclade of U106, with about half of those who are U106+.) We do ask that those who haven't SNP tested yet order a SNP test as soon as possible to confirm that they're positive for U106 or a downstream subclade.

In general for those trying to break down a recent paternal line brick wall, finding a close match at 37 or, better, 67 markers will help their research more than knowing their subclade. But sometimes knowing the subclade can narrow down the matches that they're looking at.

So, I would suggest upgrading to 67 or even 111 markers during the sale which ends on Aug. 31. If you do want to know your subclade, you should not order the R1b - M343(xM269) SNP pack. The "x" before M269 means it's designed for those who are M269-. You already know your downstream subclade, L48, from 23andMe, which means you're M269+.

There are a couple of subclades of L48 that are recognizable, even with 37 markers. If you're in one of these subclades (Z8 or Z326), you can go directly to the SNP pack for whichever subclade your 37 marker results may point to, although there's no 100% certainty that you'll have chosen the right pack. While certain marker counts may point to a certain subclade, only a SNP test can confirm with certainty your subclade.

What are your counts for these markers: DYS390, DYS447, DYS464d, DYS460 and H4? Your counts for those will indicate whether you're probably in Z8, Z326 or neither.

[Eddie43]

My predicted paternal haplogroup according to MyFTDNA is R-M269. 23andMe places me in R-L48. I have a limited understanding of DNA.

I have one match at 25 markers, with a genetic distance of 2. I tested at 37 markers.

My goal is to try and find relatives of my father or paternal grandfather. My father was adopted.

Should I proceed with the R1b - M343(xM269) SNP Pack as recommended or would should I go for the Y67 or higher testing?

Thanks for any guidance,

Ed