Originally posted by Michelstaedter
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Italian Jews!
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Originally posted by Michelstaedter View PostSpecifically I was referencing Jews with roots in Italy, not people of Jewish AND/OR Italian catholic background.
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I was specifically referencing the Italkim, a distinct ethnic group consisting of Jews living in the southern half of the Italian peninsula since the Roman times. More generally, I was speaking to ALL people of Jewish descent whose Jewish ancestors hail from modern day Italy. As I stated in my original post, these could be members of one of three Jewish ethnic divisions found there: Ashkenazi Jews, particularly in the northeast, Sephardic Jews, in the west, and the aforementioned Italkim, from Rome itself. This is NOT the same thing if people of Italian AND Jewish ancestry, but is rather a very specific kind of Jewish ancestry.Last edited by Michelstaedter; 29 June 2017, 12:21 PM.
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Originally posted by Michelstaedter View PostI was specifically referencing the Italkim, a distinct ethnic group consisting of Jews living in the southern half of the Italian peninsula since the Roman times. More generally, I was speaking to ALL people of Jewish descent whose Jewish ancestors hail from modern day Italy. As I stated in my original post, these could be members of one of three Jewish ethnic divisions found there: Ashkenazi Jews, particularly in the northeast, Sephardic Jews, in the west, and the aforementioned Italkim, from Rome itself. This is NOT the same thing if people of Italian AND Jewish ancestry, but is rather a very specific kind of Jewish ancestry.
Atzmon collected a Roman Italian Jewish sample. The genetic pattern fell between Ashkenazi and Sephardic genetic patterns, i.e. with a major Levantine component. The sample is also at Gedmatch Eurogenes with the Oracle 4 option.
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Roman Italian Jews are the Italkim "par excellence" in Italy, as they are very unlikely to have much recent Ashkkenazi or Sephardic (re)-admixture. Would be absolutely fascinated what sort of results the FTDNA and 23andMe autosomal algorithms give them. The only 23andMe customer who I shared with with definite italkim roots had one italkim grandfather, of Calabrian extraction. His 23andMe painting however came up almost entirely Italian, which is probably a function of huge amounts of assimilation of italkim into the Italian gene pool, which 23andMe then erroneously lumped with the Italian gentiles. For comparison, a woman I shared with whose grandfather was an Italian Jew from the northern city of Modena came up nearly 20 percent Ashkenazi.Last edited by Michelstaedter; 29 June 2017, 03:15 PM.
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Originally posted by Michelstaedter View PostRoman Italian Jews are the Italkim "par excellence" in Italy, as they are very unlikely to have much recent Ashkkenazi or Sephardic (re)-admixture. Would be absolutely fascinated what sort of results the FTDNA and 23andMe autosomal algorithms give them. The only 23andMe customer who I shared with with definite italkim roots had one italkim grandfather, of Calabrian extraction. His 23andMe painting however came up almost entirely Italian, which is probably a function of huge amounts of assimilation of italkim into the Italian gene pool, which 23andMe then erroneously lumped with the Italian gentiles. For comparison, a woman I shared with whose grandfather was an Italian Jew from the northern city of Modena came up nearly 20 percent Ashkenazi.
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Originally posted by josh w. View PostNot sure about Roman Jews. They may be Italkim with ancient roots, but direct evidence is lacking. My hunch is that some Roman Jews have Sephardic or Ashkenazi lines. Atzmon's sample was from Rome but I have seen mention of Sicilian Italkim
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Originally posted by Scott Ritchie View PostAre you guys hard core about the 4 grandparent rule, id like to join but only have 3 from Italy, 2 from Calabria and 1 from Rome, the other is from southern Spain?Last edited by vinnie; 1 July 2017, 05:34 PM.
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