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  • Italian Jews!

    Hello all! I have been doing some digging into my family tree, and have discovered that I am at least partially descended from Jews from the city of Venice in northeastern Italy. After much research, I concluded they were members of the Ashkenazi community there, who probably worshipped at the Scuola Canton.

    Historically, Jews in Venice were divided into three categories: the Ashkenazim, who were the first to settle in the city in medieval times (and were the originators of the German-derrived word "ghetto"), the Sephardim, who settled in Venice post 1492 following their expulsion Spain (in this group were also the "Levantine" Jews, who arrived in Venice via the Ottoman Empire), and the native Italkim, from Rome and the south. Traditionally, these groups remained separate, with intermarriage being uncommon. The plurality of Jewish culture there is attested to by the fact that there were many separate synagogues. In addition to the two Sephardic and one Italkic synagogue, there were no fewer than eight Ashkenazic synagogues at one point.

    My DNA would seem to confirm my research: I show up in MO as 35% Ashkenazi Diaspora, 60% European, and 3% Western Middle Eastern. This corresponds to the paper trail the indicates that three of my great grandparents were Jewish.

    I am however curious about what other Italian Jews might score here. I have a theory that the genetics gets progressively less "Ashkenazic" and more "Sephardic/Italkic" the further south and west one gets on the peninsula. The communities in the northeast I feel are probably the most German-derrived, especially those from Gorizia, Ceneda, and Trieste. Rome, however, is almost certainly almost all Italkim, and I wonder what their 23andme results might look like. Ditto the south and Sicily.

    If there are any Italian Jews out there, please come forward and share your story!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Michelstaedter View Post
    Hello all! I have been doing some digging into my family tree, and have discovered that I am at least partially descended from Jews from the city of Venice in northeastern Italy. After much research, I concluded they were members of the Ashkenazi community there, who probably worshipped at the Scuola Canton.

    Historically, Jews in Venice were divided into three categories: the Ashkenazim, who were the first to settle in the city in medieval times (and were the originators of the German-derrived word "ghetto"), the Sephardim, who settled in Venice post 1492 following their expulsion Spain (in this group were also the "Levantine" Jews, who arrived in Venice via the Ottoman Empire), and the native Italkim, from Rome and the south. Traditionally, these groups remained separate, with intermarriage being uncommon. The plurality of Jewish culture there is attested to by the fact that there were many separate synagogues. In addition to the two Sephardic and one Italkic synagogue, there were no fewer than eight Ashkenazic synagogues at one point.

    My DNA would seem to confirm my research: I show up in MO as 35% Ashkenazi Diaspora, 60% European, and 3% Western Middle Eastern. This corresponds to the paper trail the indicates that three of my great grandparents were Jewish.

    I am however curious about what other Italian Jews might score here. I have a theory that the genetics gets progressively less "Ashkenazic" and more "Sephardic/Italkic" the further south and west one gets on the peninsula. The communities in the northeast I feel are probably the most German-derrived, especially those from Gorizia, Ceneda, and Trieste. Rome, however, is almost certainly almost all Italkim, and I wonder what their 23andme results might look like. Ditto the south and Sicily.

    If there are any Italian Jews out there, please come forward and share your story!
    We have a Jewish and Italian My Origins Project at FTDNA---close to 300 members
    Josh

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    • #3
      Thanks. Could you point me in its direction please? Not really sure what you mean by "project" either...is is specifically for Italians AND Jews, or Italian Jews?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Michelstaedter View Post
        Hello all! I have been doing some digging into my family tree, and have discovered that I am at least partially descended from Jews from the city of Venice in northeastern Italy. After much research, I concluded they were members of the Ashkenazi community there, who probably worshipped at the Scuola Canton.

        Historically, Jews in Venice were divided into three categories: the Ashkenazim, who were the first to settle in the city in medieval times (and were the originators of the German-derrived word "ghetto"), the Sephardim, who settled in Venice post 1492 following their expulsion Spain (in this group were also the "Levantine" Jews, who arrived in Venice via the Ottoman Empire), and the native Italkim, from Rome and the south. Traditionally, these groups remained separate, with intermarriage being uncommon. The plurality of Jewish culture there is attested to by the fact that there were many separate synagogues. In addition to the two Sephardic and one Italkic synagogue, there were no fewer than eight Ashkenazic synagogues at one point.

        My DNA would seem to confirm my research: I show up in MO as 35% Ashkenazi Diaspora, 60% European, and 3% Western Middle Eastern. This corresponds to the paper trail the indicates that three of my great grandparents were Jewish.

        I am however curious about what other Italian Jews might score here. I have a theory that the genetics gets progressively less "Ashkenazic" and more "Sephardic/Italkic" the further south and west one gets on the peninsula. The communities in the northeast I feel are probably the most German-derrived, especially those from Gorizia, Ceneda, and Trieste. Rome, however, is almost certainly almost all Italkim, and I wonder what their 23andme results might look like. Ditto the south and Sicily.

        If there are any Italian Jews out there, please come forward and share your story!
        Glad to here your having some success with MO. My mothers side of the family are descended from Calabrian jews that came from Sicily after the expulsion
        from the Island during the inquisition. Many were force converted a couple made it to modern days some how! but of coarse not many in the family seem interested to talk about it. Theres a Rabbi who's still active in the area who I have distant relation to. The DNA trail has been hard to figure out, I will post some pics if I can get them to load, it has changed many times at FT. Gedmatch had quite a few jewish matches as well.
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Ah great! If you don't mind me asking: what were the last names on your mother's side? So cool that you appear to have some "genuin" italkim ancestry. He history of Jews in Sicily is fascinating, particularly with regard to heir relationship to the moorish settlement of the island...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Michelstaedter View Post
            Ah great! If you don't mind me asking: what were the last names on your mother's side? So cool that you appear to have some "genuin" italkim ancestry. He history of Jews in Sicily is fascinating, particularly with regard to heir relationship to the moorish settlement of the island...
            Scalzo
            Sacco
            Perri /Perry
            Mascaro
            Cardamone
            Aiello
            Theres also many more.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Michelstaedter View Post
              Thanks. Could you point me in its direction please? Not really sure what you mean by "project" either...is is specifically for Italians AND Jews, or Italian Jews?
              At your results home page there is a section for Projects. Anyone with an interest can join. Most members have questions about both Italian and Jewish origins. They are spread over most regions of Italy and possibly have Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italkim or Mizrachi connections.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Scott Ritchie View Post
                Glad to here your having some success with MO. My mothers side of the family are descended from Calabrian jews that came from Sicily after the expulsion
                from the Island during the inquisition. Many were force converted a couple made it to modern days some how! but of coarse not many in the family seem interested to talk about it. Theres a Rabbi who's still active in the area who I have distant relation to. The DNA trail has been hard to figure out, I will post some pics if I can get them to load, it has changed many times at FT. Gedmatch had quite a few jewish matches as well.
                Interesting how there isn't any Jewish diaspora showing op on your MO, not even Sephardic for that matter. I do however question the accuracy in having a seperate Sephardic cluster--I feel that, unlike with Ashkenazi ancestry, the algorithm is unreliable at best. Are all of the anvesto A in your mother's side Jewish? Also, I would be interested to see your gedmatch results--perhaps they would indirectly shed more light on the matter...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michelstaedter View Post
                  Interesting how there isn't any Jewish diaspora showing op on your MO, not even Sephardic for that matter. I do however question the accuracy in having a seperate Sephardic cluster--I feel that, unlike with Ashkenazi ancestry, the algorithm is unreliable at best. Are all of the anvesto A in your mother's side Jewish? Also, I would be interested to see your gedmatch results--perhaps they would indirectly shed more light on the matter...
                  Yeah it showed up in my origins then changed to Asia Minor then gone in the new version. Not all the family names and lines are jewish, just a few I think, Sacco,
                  Perri, and Cardamone are the ones I have did the most research on. I found Cardamone and Sacco in a book on Sicilian jewish documents from before the
                  expulsion the book mentioned that many of them went to Calabria upon leaving
                  Sicily. The Perri sir name I found out my Grandparents cousin who they new well, was still jewish in the 20th century here in the States.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Actually there first one was populating finder, then MO 1 and 2.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michelstaedter View Post
                      Thanks. Could you point me in its direction please? Not really sure what you mean by "project" either...is is specifically for Italians AND Jews, or Italian Jews?
                      Michael, here is the link. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...-origins/about

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vinnie View Post
                        Are you guys hard core about the 4 grandparent rule, id like to join but only have 3 from Italy, 2 from Calabria and 1 from Rome, the other is from southern Spain?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My Heritage

                          Just did the upload to my Heritage and seems more in line with my
                          original My origins, shows the Middle Eastern / West Asia that family tree doesn't
                          anymore.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scott Ritchie View Post
                            Are you guys hard core about the 4 grandparent rule, id like to join but only have 3 from Italy, 2 from Calabria and 1 from Rome, the other is from southern Spain?
                            Scott, I was not aware of any Italian connection when i joined.
                            Josh

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                            • #15
                              Any others besides just Scott Ritchie and I?

                              Comment

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