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  • #61
    Originally posted by dentate
    I think that without saying it, most people consider that anyone who was living in Judea and practicing Judaism in Roman times was an "original" Jew regardless of previous ancestry while any non-Jew who joined the community after the destruction of the temple and subsequent diaspora (remember, there was a very large diaspora community in ancient times as well, from Egypt to Greece to Mesopotamia and beyond) is considered an "admixture." This is therefore a vaguely political and geographic rather than an ethnic argument.

    As I said, I think the best way to think of Jews is very much in the same sense as what Americans are. They are a "nation" founded by a dominant ethnic group--but with minority members of other groups right from the start--and they continue to allow full "citizenship" to those who meet the right qualifications.
    I'm actually kind of torn in regards to your arguments. To an extent, I agree that there was definitely intermarriage and various admixtures and, as was stated in Max Dimont's "Jews, God and History", about 60% of the 10 million Jews in Roman times were converted Romans, Greeks, etc. However, there is a far more ethnic consciousness in regards to Jews as a people as opposed to the United States. The US considers its diversity its strength, whereas Jews (for the most part) consider their unity and single consciousness despite geographic distances the strength which has compelled them to survive.

    I will not that even though there were admixtures, various Jewish cultures (Sephardim, Ashkenazi, Asian, etc.) all have sizeable genetic links which connect them beyond just an idealogical sense, which would be the case in the US. Furthermore, those who are not J2 or what have you do likely have ancient Hebrew in their blood regardless. After all, one's haplogroup is just one window into their lineage as opposed to the whole picture.

    What I'm interested in (and has been the point of my project) is finding out where those admixtures occurred. I say admixtures because it appears in the case of R1b, there are at least a handful shown just in the project's genetic sampling.

    Consequently, if you would like to take a look at our values, feel free to check the website. Also, I do want to thank you all for a fascinating conversation thus far! The intelligence and knowledge you've shown has been fantastic. In my mind, its the best of what boards like this could aspire to.

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    • #62
      It would be interesting if anyone could test the dna in the remains of people from ancient Israel. The idea is not farfetched. The National geographic project is currently testing the remains of ancient Phoenicians. Although the CMH is J1 or J2, I'm guessing that there were other haplogroups since Cohanim constitute a small portion of the total population.

      I discovered an ironic situation regarding the Zipporah - Cu****e issue (Numbers-12). Some rabbinical scholars have suggested that she was not Cu****e (L3?) because the bible should not be taken literally.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by josh w.

        I discovered an ironic situation regarding the Zipporah - Cu****e issue (Numbers-12). Some rabbinical scholars have suggested that she was not Cu****e (L3?) because the bible should not be taken literally.

        I'll bet they don't say that about the Exodus

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        • #64
          Zipporah wasn't Cu****e (or as some translations say, Ethiopian). She was a Midianite, the daughter of Jethro, a Midianite priest (cf Exodus 2:16-22).

          In Numbers 12 Moses' sister Miriam, along with Aaron were jealous of Moses. They picked on his wife, making and issue that she was dark and foreign. Punishment in that Theocracy was meted out by making Miriam white as snow (verse 10) from leprosy. After Aaron said he was sorry and Moses prayed to have Miriam healed, Miriam spent 7 days outside of the Israelite camp. Later she went back into the camp and everyone moved on. Lesson learned.

          Some scholars note that in Numbers 12 the name Zipporah isn't there, leading them to think that Moses married someone else, but there's no evidence in scripture of Moses taking on another wife.

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          • #65
            I am the last person to claim knowledge in this area and my view is close to "the Bible as literature" position. However the text itself says that Moses' wife was Cu****e. In fact, the text says it twice lest there be any confusion. It is not even clear that the reference was to Zipporah and some have suggested that the Cu****e woman was a second wife.. There is no indication in the text that the term "Cu****e" was used as a metaphor, i.e. nowhere are her personal qualities discussed. The wife was not criticized; Moses was criticized for marrying her. Any conclusion to the contrary was not based on the actual text of Chapter 12.

            I probably should have avoided this issue in the first place since its relevance to gene lines is not exactly obvious. Although many readings of Numbers, Ch. 12 are possible, one interpretation is that it accepted the possibility of intermarriage for the Jewish community of the first milleneum B.C.E. (The text indicates that Miriam was punished for condemning Moses' marriage to the Cu****e). If this interpretation makes sense, it would support the view that there was ethnic and consequenty haplogroup diversity within the Jewish community of this era.
            Last edited by josh w.; 24 June 2006, 02:06 PM.

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            • #66
              Interested on Sephardic Jews?

              Do the names of Abraham Seneor, Mayr Melamed and Abraham de Córdoba mean anything to you?
              They lived in 1492.
              In the Spanish Kingdoms.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Marttinen
                Zipporah wasn't Cu****e (or as some translations say, Ethiopian). She was a Midianite, the daughter of Jethro, a Midianite priest (cf Exodus 2:16-22).

                In Numbers 12 Moses' sister Miriam, along with Aaron were jealous of Moses. They picked on his wife, making and issue that she was dark and foreign. Punishment in that Theocracy was meted out by making Miriam white as snow (verse 10) from leprosy. After Aaron said he was sorry and Moses prayed to have Miriam healed, Miriam spent 7 days outside of the Israelite camp. Later she went back into the camp and everyone moved on. Lesson learned.

                Some scholars note that in Numbers 12 the name Zipporah isn't there, leading them to think that Moses married someone else, but there's no evidence in scripture of Moses taking on another wife.
                Numbers 12 in both the Douay-Rheims and King James versions of the Bible call the dark-complexioned wife of Moses an "Ethiopian."

                I seem to recall reading another translation that referred to her as a "Cu****e," but my memory could be faulty on the subject.

                Could Moses have had more than one wife?

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                • #68
                  Moses had two wives

                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  Numbers 12 in both the Douay-Rheims and King James versions of the Bible call the dark-complexioned wife of Moses an "Ethiopian."

                  I seem to recall reading another translation that referred to her as a "Cu****e," but my memory could be faulty on the subject.

                  Could Moses have had more than one wife?
                  Hello, pardon me for interjecting,

                  After Abraham's wife, Sarah died, he remarried and 2nd wife Keturah bore children, where the Midianites came from.

                  EXODUS 18:2
                  2 Then Jethro, Moses' father in law, took Zipporah, Moses'
                  wife, after he had sent her back...

                  Zipporah had to two children, Eleazar and Gershom.

                  It is assumed that Zipporah died and Moses remarried.
                  Moses married Zipporah years before the Exodus, then the Ethiopian much later in his life, much after the Exodus.

                  NUMBERS 12:1
                  1 ¶ And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by robe3b
                    Interested on Sephardic Jews?

                    Do the names of Abraham Seneor, Mayr Melamed and Abraham de Córdoba mean anything to you?
                    They lived in 1492.
                    In the Spanish Kingdoms.
                    Sorry, I didn't mean to intrude. I thought that this thread dealt with Sephardim.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by robe3b
                      Interested on Sephardic Jews?

                      Do the names of Abraham Seneor, Mayr Melamed and Abraham de Córdoba mean anything to you?
                      They lived in 1492.
                      In the Spanish Kingdoms.
                      I'm not familiar with those names. Who are they?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Villicus
                        I'm not familiar with those names. Who are they?
                        Abraham Seneor was "rabí mayor de Castilla", in other words, the leader of the Castilian Jewish Community. He also was a close collaborator of the Catholic Kings. On June the 15th 1492, he and his family were baptized in the Monastery of Guadalupe. Godparents: Isabela and Fernando, their true friends.

                        Mayr Melamed: Abraham Seneor's son in law, converted too.

                        Abraham de Córdoba, renown Spanish Jew converted to Christianism in 1492. Godfather: Cardinal Mendoza himself (the Grand Chancellor of Fernando and Isabella).

                        Now, right to the point. Between 250,000 and 300,000 converted Sephardic Jews in the Spanish Kingdoms, only in the XV Century.

                        Are you looking for some Sephardic Y-DNA matches. Have a look at modern Spaniards genetic profile. ( Perhaps, not a bad idea).

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                        • #72
                          Yes, it is a good idea. The inquisition went after even those who converted sometimes though forcing even genuine converts to leave as soon as possible.
                          I'm sure quite a few were able to stay, but I wonder how many.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Villicus
                            Yes, it is a good idea. The inquisition went after even those who converted sometimes though forcing even genuine converts to leave as soon as possible.
                            I'm sure quite a few were able to stay, but I wonder how many.
                            It's difficult to say how many conversos remained in the Spanish Kingdoms and could safely live there. If we accept Professor Joseph Pérez figures ("Los judíos en España", Madrid, 2005), the conversos amounted to 250,00-300,000 at the end of the XV Century. In 1492, there were around 150,000 Jews in Castille, and 50,000 in the Kingdom of Aragon. Professor Pérez estimates that less than 50,000 left the Spanish Kingdoms as a consequence of the Decree of expulsion. If we assume these figures to be correct, the whole number of conversos living in Castille and Aragon after the expulsion would be of 400,000 -450,000 persons (4.0 to 4.5 percent of the total population).

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                            • #74
                              Yes, a comprehensive picture of Sephardic haplogroups involves consideration of conversos who remained Christian and did not leave Spain. My understanding is that some currently Christian surnames are associated with Sephardic history, e.g. surnames involving fruit trees. This remains a painful subject for many, but perhaps someone will attempt a genetic genealogy study.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by josh w.
                                Yes, a comprehensive picture of Sephardic haplogroups involves consideration of conversos who remained Christian and did not leave Spain. My understanding is that some currently Christian surnames are associated with Sephardic history, e.g. surnames involving fruit trees. This remains a painful subject for many, but perhaps someone will attempt a genetic genealogy study.
                                There have been rumors going on for more than a year about a study by Dr. Behar on Sephardic lineages but the rumor hasn't materialized yet.

                                One thing is certain, that in the absence of actual scientific genetic studies to correlate phylogeographic data with historical data, all kinds of theories have emerged that make assertions about a supposed Sephardic lineage based on surnames, like you mention involving fruit trees, animals, special spellings, etc.

                                Some of these theories are without any serious merit and some are even downright proselitizing efforts that tend to mislead the naive and those that are eagerly searching for an "exotic" ancestry to put them apart from the common denominator.

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