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  • #31
    Sean, Mazel Tov. Has anyone in your project been in contact with Hirschman and Yates, the authors of "When Scotland Was Jewish". The title sounds like it came from Monty Python but it is a real book. Well, sort of. The book will not be published until 2007. However, its ads claim that the book will present research indicating that R1b is the modal haplogroup of West Sephardic (Iberia, France and Italy) Jews.

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    • #32
      Do you have a link? That sounds interesting. Different, but interesting

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      • #33
        Does anyone know how many E3bs are Sephardic compared to Ashkenazi? In my uncle's RAO/Haplo. pages, he's got several from Italy, Spain & Portugal, but no mention of Sephardim. And all the Ashkenazi's are eastern or central european. I was just curious.
        Ilyse

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        • #34
          Villicus, the book ad can be found on the homepage of Dna Consulting which is another dna testing outfit. Yates one of the authors, is connected with the firm as well as the U. of New Mexico.

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          • #35
            Thanks, I'll check it out.

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            • #36
              Hmm. I just looked at the ad for the book and read the sample chapter, but something doesn't seem quite right. I'm probably just being overly cautious, but there is alot of B.S. science/geneology going around regarding just who is Jewish. In some evangelical circles there is what seems to be an obsession in being connected in some way to a Jewish background. They are so determined to be considered the 'original' Christians that they will, by hook or crook, bend the truth or make up fanciful stories to justify their claims.
              As I said earlier, it may just be me, but stuff like this puts my B.S. detector on standby.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Villicus
                Hmm. I just looked at the ad for the book and read the sample chapter, but something doesn't seem quite right. I'm probably just being overly cautious, but there is alot of B.S. science/geneology going around regarding just who is Jewish. In some evangelical circles there is what seems to be an obsession in being connected in some way to a Jewish background. They are so determined to be considered the 'original' Christians that they will, by hook or crook, bend the truth or make up fanciful stories to justify their claims.
                As I said earlier, it may just be me, but stuff like this puts my B.S. detector on standby.
                I haven't read the book, but based on discussions I've read elsewhere your skepticism may be well placed in this instance.

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                • #38
                  Here's a link to the publisher's page for this book. There's only a brief description of it so far....

                  http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.p...=0-7864-2800-7

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by josh w.
                    Sean, Mazel Tov. Has anyone in your project been in contact with Hirschman and Yates, the authors of "When Scotland Was Jewish". The title sounds like it came from Monty Python but it is a real book. Well, sort of. The book will not be published until 2007. However, its ads claim that the book will present research indicating that R1b is the modal haplogroup of West Sephardic (Iberia, France and Italy) Jews.
                    There actually is a project, the Border Reivers DNA project (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/) which focuses on Scottish R1b that may or may nor have relation to the Sephardim. I personally am maintaining a healthy skepticism, though I've talked to both the project administrators of the Border Reivers at length and they seem to be pretty smart, honest guys.

                    As far as R1b being the modal for the Sephardim, that'll only be proven by a large amount of Sephardic samples. Otherwise, the rest is just pure conjecture (unfortunately).

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ilyse
                      Does anyone know how many E3bs are Sephardic compared to Ashkenazi? In my uncle's RAO/Haplo. pages, he's got several from Italy, Spain & Portugal, but no mention of Sephardim. And all the Ashkenazi's are eastern or central european. I was just curious.
                      Ilyse
                      You'll find some percentages in Table 1 of "Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area"

                      http://www.ftdna.com/pdf/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Villicus
                        Hmm. I just looked at the ad for the book and read the sample chapter, but something doesn't seem quite right. I'm probably just being overly cautious, but there is alot of B.S. science/geneology going around regarding just who is Jewish. In some evangelical circles there is what seems to be an obsession in being connected in some way to a Jewish background. They are so determined to be considered the 'original' Christians that they will, by hook or crook, bend the truth or make up fanciful stories to justify their claims.
                        As I said earlier, it may just be me, but stuff like this puts my B.S. detector on standby.
                        I've actually been told by a well-regarded Sephardic resource I have that being tied to Jewish lineage is quite prestigious in Portugal and Spain. Its a societal badge, or so I'm told.

                        I will say that our project, the R1b Jewish project, only focuses on those with (to our knowledge) uninterrupted Jewish paternal lineage with no history of conversion. We have about 38 members now and what we've at least initially seen seems to be significant. We're consulting with a well-regarded geneticist on their initial impressions on our data.

                        Coincidentally, if anyone does fit our project criteria, PLEASE do feel free to join! The more data we can get, the closer we might be able to get to the truth.

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                        • #42
                          All,

                          You probably already know this, but among the Samaritans, who represent a branch of the ancient "Hebrew" nation that never left Palestine, there are four remaining paternal lineages. The Samaritans are very strict and do not allow converts into the male lineage. Three of the four families are J, including J2 and J2f. One is E3b. That E3b one is the one that claims Cohen status.

                          There were rival clans of Cohanim in ancient Judea. The clan of Zadok, for example, and the Hasmoneans. It seems likely that they were not all related as they claimed. I think that the existence of J1, J2, R1b, and E3b Cohanim may be an ancient phenomenon. Some families proliferated more than others. We will likely never know which is more ancient or original than which.

                          If you think R1b is interesting, consider that my mother's brother--Litvak Jewish origin--is R2. He has about 6 matches at 12/12 in the FTDNA database, all Ashkenazi. R2 is supposed to be from Sri Lanka and India, but is scattered through the Middle East as well. Is this Khazar? Persian? Rroma? Ancient Judean?

                          The "twelve tribes" of ancient Israel could well have represented a national recollection of diverse tribal origins. However, admixture did occur and was relatively encouraged up until 1000 years ago or so. Jews are more a nationality than anything else--a nationality that granted citizenship if you passed certain requirements, just like American nationality. The fact that Americans accreted around an original English core and that Jews accreted around an original "Hebrew" core should not be misinterpreted to mean that those cores were definitive of the nationality. As for Cohen tradition, some on this forum have claimed special ability to determine Cohen status--but tradition is suggestion, not proof. I match a large number of people claiming Cohen status with an MRCA of around 1000 years ago, but many other matches who do not claim the status. Any model proposing common ancestry for Cohanim has to explain observations like this.

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                          • #43
                            Thanks for all the information, dentate! I'll be honest that I don't know too much about the Samaritans, though the historian Max Dimont theorized that possibly the Israelites who made the exodus from Egypt and those remaining in the Promised Land might not have been the same people. More than likely, the Israelites could have included those slaves who weren't necessarily of Hebrew origin, but became a part of the people throughout the enslavement.

                            This is just one contentious theory which might explain an admixture. However, I would note that Jewish communities have been insular and the people, themselves, have been pretty protective of Aaron's line. It would take a pretty convincing figure to talk a Jewish community into believing they were Cohanim without proof of pedigree.

                            Also, if I could ask... how could the Samaritans claim a Cohanic line if it was the male descendents of Aaron, among the house of Levi, who were given this raiment?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by LernerTzvi
                              Hi,

                              I still do not understand how there could be four different haplogroup letters to indicate he/she has true Jewish ancestry. If all of the tribes originated from Jacob, it would make sense if the Jews were of one haplogroup with subclades attached. For example, I am haplogroup J2f for my YDNA and my paternal side of the family is Jewish. Furthermore, I match with a Samaritan for my three step mutations and another for my four step mutations. Both entries for the Samaritan matches are of haplogroup J. Furthermore, my matches also indicate many Ashkenazis, Sephardis, Cohens, and a bit of Levis. For those with Haplogroup E3b and R1b that claim to have patrilineal Jewish ancestry, do you match with a sufficent number of Askenazis, Sephardis, Levis, or Cohens?
                              Actually, at the inception of the R1b Jewish project, I wanted to see if there was any trends or relationhips between the R1b Jews. I tried to remain skeptical of what I might find despite my personal biases, but we have found several trends which may prove to be significant. Honestly, we have to wait until Dr. Behar analyzes the information before we can even begin the process, but there seems to be a relationship between a handful of different groups among the project that could have sufficient genetic diversity to hint toward an ancient admixture with the Hebrews.

                              Also, I'll offer you this. Scientifically-speaking, a gene pool cannot be generated by one man. Rather, it takes some variance in order to create a viable group that can survive while passing on its genetic code. In other words, although the Jews have some issues with health (BRACA II and breast cancer, tay sachs, etc.), there had to be some diversity among both males and females for them to survive. The same is true for the Cohanim.

                              What we know is that Abraham was a leader of his people. The bible says it was just his family, but what of those who might've flocked to his religion? What about the generations between Isaac, Jacob and Joshua? How could they have carved a niche anywhere if they were limited to one family?

                              Furthermore, when the Israelites returned from captivity in Egypt, surely other slaves likely came with them? How could the Egyptians have ruled out who and who was not Jewish without some slippage?

                              As far as R1b Jewish, there is not enough scientific study in the area to establish any precedent. However, that is what this project is trying to create. We have found some significant and continued trends among our participants, even if they do have a wide genetic variance. Furthermore, I (as a DYS393=12 R1b) do match closely with a handful of others who also have a long family tradition of being Cohanim. There is even some genetic variance between us, thus hinting that our common ancestor might not have been within the last 1000 years even.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by LernerTzvi
                                Hi,

                                I still do not understand how there could be four different haplogroup letters to indicate he/she has true Jewish ancestry. If all of the tribes originated from Jacob, it would make sense if the Jews were of one haplogroup with subclades attached.
                                Additionally, if Moses was the great-grandson of Levi, how could the Hebrews have raised in sufficient number to threaten the Egyptian majority in a span of 3 generations? The Hebrews that came into Egypt surely numbered proportionally far less than the number who left it.

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