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  • Markers and group origins

    Just curious about something
    I have been reading posts and am wondering whether you can really
    tell a group someones ancestor belonged to based on the number sequence
    of ones Y chromosome. I can understand getting a clue based on the
    haplogroup - But it just seems to me that if the number sequences mutate
    in any given number of generations that it would be hard to tell anything
    from them outside of ones surname. I mean a lot of people have exact sequence matches with people of different surnames and locations.
    (no offense) - I know some people are into the Niall thing.

    for reference my info
    Haplo-R1b1
    393-13
    390-23
    19-14
    391-11
    385A-11
    385B-14
    426-12
    388-12
    439-11
    3891-13
    392-13
    3892-29

  • #2
    Originally posted by Fraigno
    Just curious about something
    I have been reading posts and am wondering whether you can really
    tell a group someones ancestor belonged to based on the number sequence
    of ones Y chromosome. I can understand getting a clue based on the
    haplogroup - But it just seems to me that if the number sequences mutate
    in any given number of generations that it would be hard to tell anything
    from them outside of ones surname. I mean a lot of people have exact sequence matches with people of different surnames and locations.
    (no offense) - I know some people are into the Niall thing.

    for reference my info
    Haplo-R1b1
    393-13
    390-23
    19-14
    391-11
    385A-11
    385B-14
    426-12
    388-12
    439-11
    3891-13
    392-13
    3892-29
    The numbers do mutate but not so often that one cannot use them to make educated guesses about the geographic origins of one's y-ancestors.

    Certain haplotypes occur more frequently in certain areas than do others. Your haplotype, for example, is something like mine in that it has DYS390=23, DYS391=11, and DYS392=13.

    Those values at those specific markers, when they occur together like that, are supposed to be a fairly reliable (although not absolute) indicator of a Germanic y-haplotype of the R1b-Frisian cluster. The cluster is called Frisian because it is most common in Denmark, Northern Germany, and the Netherlands. In the British Isles it is supposed to be an indicator of "invader" status (Anglo-Saxon or possibly Danish Viking).

    You may want to compare your numbers to the chart of R1b modal haplotypes here.

    Comment


    • #3
      Fraigno -

      You may be interested in this web site, as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Try putting your numbers in here https://home.comcast.net/~whitathey/hapest/hapest.htm

        See which group you match best. These values can change quite a bit when you add additional dna numbers so I wouldn't put all my faith into the results.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the reply!!!

          Originally posted by Stevo
          The numbers do mutate but not so often that one cannot use them to make educated guesses about the geographic origins of one's y-ancestors.

          Certain haplotypes occur more frequently in certain areas than do others. Your haplotype, for example, is something like mine in that it has DYS390=23, DYS391=11, and DYS392=13.

          Those values at those specific markers, when they occur together like that, are supposed to be a fairly reliable (although not absolute) indicator of a Germanic y-haplotype of the R1b-Frisian cluster. The cluster is called Frisian because it is most common in Denmark, Northern Germany, and the Netherlands. In the British Isles it is supposed to be an indicator of "invader" status (Anglo-Saxon or possibly Danish Viking).

          You may want to compare your numbers to the chart of R1b modal haplotypes here.





          You may be right about the Frisian thing - I can't say all I know is the
          family supposedly came to England from Normandy and that my direct
          male ancestor supposedly was a soldier in William the Conquerors army.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fraigno
            You may be right about the Frisian thing - I can't say all I know is the
            family supposedly came to England from Normandy and that my direct
            male ancestor supposedly was a soldier in William the Conquerors army.
            If your family tradition is correct, then you could be a descendant of one of the Danish Vikings who settled in Normandy. Then again, a number of Flemish (from Flanders) knights and other soldiers were part of William's invasion force, and some of them might have had the Frisian haplotype, as well. It's difficult to say for sure.

            Are you planning on upgrading and testing for more markers?

            Have you considered a Deep SNP-R1b test?

            I hope you stick around and contribute to this forum, especially to the R1b threads.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well...

              Originally posted by Stevo
              If your family tradition is correct, then you could be a descendant of one of the Danish Vikings who settled in Normandy. Then again, a number of Flemish (from Flanders) knights and other soldiers were part of William's invasion force, and some of them might have had the Frisian haplotype, as well. It's difficult to say for sure.

              Are you planning on upgrading and testing for more markers?

              Have you considered a Deep SNP-R1b test?

              I hope you stick around and contribute to this forum, especially to the R1b threads.



              I upgraded to the 37 marker test a little while back - the results should be
              back in about 2 weeks. I haven't really thought about doing a
              Deep SNP -R1b test - what exactly will that tell me?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fraigno
                You may be right about the Frisian thing - I can't say all I know is the
                family supposedly came to England from Normandy and that my direct
                male ancestor supposedly was a soldier in William the Conquerors army.
                William the Conqueror ( Vilhelm Erövraren )
                http://viking.hgo.se/db_search/who_i...l.php?ID=33665

                Some scholars question why the Bayeux Tapestry (THE BAYEUX TAPESTRY is also known as Queen Mathilde's tapestry) should depict a Raven Banner in the hands of a Norman warrior. Two suggested answers include reference to an unrecorded Viking leader among William’s troops, or possibly an oblique reference to the Normans’ origin as Vikings under Hrolf der Ganger.
                http://www.medievalwardrobe.com/item/15

                WILLIAM was born in 1027 or 1028. His father was known as such as "Robert the Devil." William was born of a liaison between his father and a tanner's daughter named Herleve or Herleva, also called Arlette.
                According to legend, Robert was riding his horse one day when he saw the lovely Arlette washing her clothes in a river. And according to another story, Arlette was dancing beside a road when Robert first spied her. Instantly smitten, the duke sent one of his servants to summon Arlette to his castle. Their son William was born within a year.
                After her relationship with Robert ended, Arlette married a viscount with whom she had four children, including a son called Otto (Odo) of Bayeux who would become one of William's most trusted advisors.
                When William was about eight, his father left for a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. He died on his journey, and his illegitimate son became the new Duke of Normandy. Norman barons quickly plotted to do away with the young duke.
                http://oaks.nvg.org/an6ra11.html

                The terror of the Europe during the 10th Century were the Vikings. They were marauding from England throughout France and Spain and the Mediterranean at will in there time. And even the Anglo-Saxons have a Viking heritage as do the Normans - To appease the Vikings and stop the attacks on Paris in 886 the King of France gives a section of the Country to them - this section of his Country was, and still is, known as Normandy and the "Northmen" become "Normans" (they also convert to Christianity here as they adopt to their new home). It is from Normandy and of Viking heritage that William the Conqueror arises and in 1066 crosses the English Channel and conquers England.
                http://www.carman.net/my_own_thoughts.htm
                Seems to makes sense to me because Normans came from Norway.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fraigno
                  I upgraded to the 37 marker test a little while back - the results should be
                  back in about 2 weeks. I haven't really thought about doing a
                  Deep SNP -R1b test - what exactly will that tell me?
                  Your present title to R1b1 status is a prediction by FTDNA based upon your haplotype. Only a deep SNP-R1b will actually confirm that you are in fact R1b1.

                  Those SNPs will also give you clues as to the geographic origins of your y-ancestors.

                  I am hoping that in the near future FTDNA will test for more downstream markers that will give even better indications of one's ancestral origins.

                  My own Deep SNP-R1b is in Batch 155, due July 17.
                  Last edited by Stevo; 5 June 2006, 08:58 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    William the Conqueror

                    There is an interesting article here entitled Was 'William the Conqueror' An R1b?

                    You have to scroll down to get to it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Again

                      Originally posted by Stevo
                      Your present title to R1b1 status is a prediction by FTDNA based upon your haplotype. Only a deep SNP-R1b will actually confirm that you are in fact R1b1.

                      Those SNPs will also give you clues as to the geographic origins of your y-ancestors.

                      I am hoping that in the near future FTDNA will test for more downstream markers that will give even better indications of one's ancestral origins.

                      My own Deep SNP-R1b is in Batch 155, due July 17.


                      Well, thanks again for the info - I will consider the Deep SNP test.
                      I just got my 37 marker test back early - Have tried a couple of databases
                      but so far closest is 28 out of 37. Now we play the waiting game.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        by the way

                        Originally posted by Fraigno
                        Well, thanks again for the info - I will consider the Deep SNP test.
                        I just got my 37 marker test back early - Have tried a couple of databases
                        but so far closest is 28 out of 37. Now we play the waiting game.


                        my updated 37 marker test results are

                        393-13
                        390-23
                        19-14
                        391-11
                        385A-11
                        385B-14
                        426-12
                        388-12
                        439-11
                        3891-13
                        392-13
                        3892-29
                        458-15
                        459A-9
                        459B-10
                        455-11
                        454-11
                        447-24
                        437-15
                        448-21
                        449-28
                        464A-15
                        464B-15
                        464C-16
                        464D-17
                        460-10
                        GataH4-11
                        YCA11A-19
                        YCA11B-23
                        456-15
                        607-15
                        576-17
                        570-16
                        CDYA-34
                        CDYB-39
                        442-13
                        438-12

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fraigno
                          Well, thanks again for the info - I will consider the Deep SNP test.
                          I just got my 37 marker test back early - Have tried a couple of databases
                          but so far closest is 28 out of 37. Now we play the waiting game.
                          Your first 12 markers were fairly close to mine, if I recall correctly.

                          My YSEARCH ID is HX9ZF.

                          How far are we off?



                          Oops! I posted the above before seeing your markers. I'll check them against mine myself.

                          Standby!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No luck.

                            We started out close, but when we got beyond a genetic distance of 5, I stopped counting.

                            We're related, Fraigno, but it's a trip to our MRCA.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I counted about

                              Originally posted by Stevo
                              No luck.

                              We started out close, but when we got beyond a genetic distance of 5, I stopped counting.

                              We're related, Fraigno, but it's a trip to our MRCA.

                              I counted about 10 markers off and a genetic distance of abt 16

                              Comment

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