Ancient origins / Jewish ancient origins

[Dora]

Hi all,

I have a question regarding the Ancient origins versus the My Origins/ Family Finder results/Gedmatch.
I'm a little confused... lets' take my aunt results for example:

Her ancient origins are:

44% Hunter-Gatherer
39% Farmer
17% Metal Age Invader
0% non-European

Eurogenes:

1. 85.6% Polish + 14.4% Ashkenazi @ 2.07
2. 87.7% Polish + 12.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.19
3. 87.7% Polish + 12.3% Italian_Jewish @ 2.2


So how is that possible? When did the semitic people appear in Europe for the first time? How is that possible that the confirmed small Ashkenazi admixture in my family (based on the cousin matches analysis and other data) doesn't show at all in the ancient origins. If non-european is zero, how would the Jewish admixture be possible?

I know the ancient origins are a new feature and not perfect, but still, I would love to get some new knowledge, from somebody who is better informed

[MMaddi]

Basically, AncientOrigins and myOrigins are estimating ancestry on two different timescales. AncientOrigins is measuring ancestry at a time when there were no nations, while myOrigins is looking at a more recent time.

Hunter-gatherers were the dominant humans in Europe more than 10,000 years ago. Farmers migrated from Anatolia (now Turkey) into Europe 8,000-10,000 years ago and became dominant in most of Europe by probably 6,000-8,000 years ago. Metal Age invaders came into Europe from the steppes north of the Black Sea about 5,000 years ago and their DNA makes up large part of modern European DNA.

All these categories of people and societies came before there was a Jewish religion or people. So, there's no contradiction there.

Ashkenazi Jews are members of a specific Jewish community, which is a mix of Jews from Israel who came to Europe, mostly around the time of the Roman Empire, and non-Jews from Germany/eastern Europe. Because of the mix of ancestry, many population geneticists consider Ashkenazi Jews to be a European population, even though their distant ancestry is from the Middle East.

[Dora]

Thank you for your reply, MMaddi.

Yes, but why the ancient origins don't show any ancient Middle Eastern ancestry? It looks like all my ancient ancestors are from Europe...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding everything, but is it then possible that the Jewish people have European ancient ancestry and then there was a back migration to the Middle East / Levant and then the Jewish nation formed and came back to Europe later again?

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense

[MMaddi]

Thank you for your reply, MMaddi.

Yes, but why the ancient origins don't show any ancient Middle Eastern ancestry? It looks like all my ancient ancestors are from Europe...

Quoting myself from my first post, "Farmers migrated from Anatolia (now Turkey) into Europe 8,000-10,000 years ago and became dominant in most of Europe by probably 6,000-8,000 years ago."

Anatolia/Turkey is part of the Middle East. Although it's originally Middle Eastern DNA, through that ancient migration it became mixed into our ancestors so that almost all modern Europeans have it to one extent or another. That makes it "European" from the standpoint of population genetics and genetic genealogy.

"Non-European" from the standpoint of AncientOrigins and myOrigins would be something like Central Asia, the Far East or Sub-Saharan Africa. None of those areas have made any significant contribution over thousands of years to modern Europeans - hence that's "non-European."

[josh w.]

Quoting myself from my first post, "Farmers migrated from Anatolia (now Turkey) into Europe 8,000-10,000 years ago and became dominant in most of Europe by probably 6,000-8,000 years ago."

Anatolia/Turkey is part of the Middle East. Although it's originally Middle Eastern DNA, through that ancient migration it became mixed into our ancestors so that almost all modern Europeans have it to one extent or another. That makes it "European" from the standpoint of population genetics and genetic genealogy.

"Non-European" from the standpoint of AncientOrigins and myOrigins would be something like Central Asia, the Far East or Sub-Saharan Africa. None of those areas have made any significant contribution over thousands of years to modern Europeans - hence that's "non-European."

Agree with MMaddi. Just to add, the Ftdna test is not the best test to get at Jewish ancient origins for it does not cover the Levant. As MMaddi has noted there is another more appropriate test, Gedrosia's Near East Neolithic test at Gedmatch. The Natufian component there covers the ancient Levant. Ashkenazis have around 20% of this component. It is not higher because of the Diaspora and migration to Europe. In the Near East, the people who became Jews also experienced admixture from Asia Minor (Farmers) and a combined group of Iranians and Caucasians (CHG_EEF) who were the precursers of the Metal culture

[Dora]

Thank you Josh and MMaddi,

I've checked my aunts results in the Gedrosia Near East Neolithic calculator, and the Natufian component is:

NATUFIAN 4.14 %

And for my mother (her sister) : NATUFIAN is 4.66 % .

But then, just for comparison, I have checked my father, who doesn't seem to have Ashkenazi admixture and his Natufian component is 3.47 %, so basically almost the same as my mother... What would be the average Natufian component for a typical European?

[josh w.]

Thank you Josh and MMaddi,

I've checked my aunts results in the Gedrosia Near East Neolithic calculator, and the Natufian component is:

NATUFIAN 4.14 %

And for my mother (her sister) : NATUFIAN is 4.66 % .

But then, just for comparison, I have checked my father, who doesn't seem to have Ashkenazi admixture and his Natufian component is 3.47 %, so basically almost the same as my mother... What would be the average Natufian component for a typical European?

Russians get around 1% and Lithuanians get 0% Natufian. This seems to support a small Ashkenazi component.

[Dora]

Thank you Josh

So Lithuanians have about 0% Natufian... Do you maybe know the approximate percentage for Austrians and Germans? Is it also around 0-1 % ?

[josh w.]

Thank you Josh

So Lithuanians have about 0% Natufian... Do you maybe know the approximate percentage for Austrians and Germans? Is it also around 0-1 % ?

The closest region, Czechs have 5%.

[josh w.]

The closest region, Czechs have 5%.

There appears to be a south to north gradient for Natufian. Southern Europeans have the highest rates and Scandinavians & Balts have the lowest. Western Europe and Central Europe are in the middle.

[Dora]

Thank you Josh,
That's what my intuition was telling me, that the farther south than the Natufian component would increase.