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  • Thanks for the link, Noaide. It's very interesting.

    In the Table 1 it is particularly intersting to note that the frequency of I1a is 46.55% in the Finnish speaking Southern Ostrobothnia (SO) but only 36% in the Swedish speaking Ostrobothnia (SSO). I think this suggests that I1a arrived in Finland before the mass migrations of Swedes in the 13th or 14th century. I think those latecomers had relatively much of R1b unlike earlier Scandinavian immigrants. The highest frequency of I1a seems to be in Satakunta (52.08%) that is now almost totally Finnish speaking.

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    • There are R1b in Siberia and Scotland. I would think there might be some trace of them in between in Scandinavia.

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      • Originally posted by M.O'Connor
        There are R1b in Siberia and Scotland. I would think there might be some trace of them in between in Scandinavia.
        As you can see from the phylogram of R1b, it probably took a southern route. Maybe R1b spread to Siberia from the locus east of the Black Sea?

        http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...b_large_RG.jpg

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        • With R being close to Q I would think that R was in Siberia for quite a while.

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          • We've been through this same tired old argument before.

            I'm convinced R1b, like those Swedish scientists said, has been in Scandinavia a long long time, that it was one of the first y-haplogroups there.

            R1b is the most ubiquitous, numerically successful y-haplogroup in Europe. That is both a blessing and a curse. It makes it impossible to pin R1b down to a specific area and say, "R1b is always this" or "R1b is always that."

            It also makes it possible for any Tom, Dick, or Harry to come along and argue that R1b is a latecomer to a particular region, even without any real proof.

            I1a, on the other hand, is a much more limited y-haplogroup. That is why it can be so confidently tagged as Scandinavian, even when it is found in other places.

            I don't say that to disparage I1a. Two and possibly three of my own family lines are I1a.

            There is strong evidence that R1b is uralt in Scandinavia. Eki and friends, for some unknown reason, want to exclude R1b as native to Scandinavia and claim it arrived only after the Black Death of the 14th century. I don't understand why that is, but if it makes them feel better, fine.

            That is why they built Disney World, after all. It's all about the fantasy.

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            • Originally posted by Stevo
              Then, of course, there is that scientific study cited earlier in this thread by Mike Maddi. The Swedish researchers who conducted it concluded that R1b is one of the earliest major male lineages in Sweden.

              Then there is the fact that continental Europe suffered severely from the Black Death and wasn't in much of a position in the 14th - 15th centuries to send masses of immigrants anywhere, least of all to another plague-ravaged land.

              Those facts make the quote from the post above laughable.

              We've been over this ground before.
              Stevo-

              In the spirit of good natured, amateur debate, what you may be neglecting to consider, is just how severely the Black Death impacted Norway. Given its small population at the time and the likely concentrations of population in the south of Norway, the disease probably left little refuge for the indigenous population. Norway is generally regarded as having been the most severely impacted by the Black Death. As the disease abated, there was plenty of land left fallow with no one to work it. I have read that the landed gentry of Norway was all but eliminated, leading to an influx of Danish gentry, among others. At the present time, there are only five families in Norway that can claim relation to the pre-plague Norwegian nobility (mine is evidently not one of them ). Given the size of the Norwegian population today, and taking into consideration the contemporary distribution of haplogroups in Norway, I think it is entirely possible that the present distribution is perhaps skewed somewhat to R1b. I am going to go out on limb here and comment that 350,000 to 400,000 people in pre plague Norway is not a large population. It is quite possible that this population was far more homogenous than that of contemporary Norway. A population reduced to scarcely more than 200,000 and then supplemented by settlers from Denmark (possibly R1b), Germany (possibly R1b), the UK (you get the idea) could have had a very significant impact on haplogroup representation, especially in the cities. I can't speak as to the longevity of I1a in the rest of Scandinavia, but I suspect it may be marginally more "uralt" (German- ancient, very old, dateless) in Norway.

              But, it is hard to tell. It is interesting, to be sure. I need to have one of my maternal uncles tested to see where they end up. Both my mother's family and my paternal grandmother family came from Oppland, Norway. My dad's line is I1a from Denmark, interestingly enough.

              Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. People were living in Scandinavia just fine for a long time without knowing what haplogroup they were.

              I1a rules!

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              • What you may be neglecting to consider is that the Black Death impacted ALL of Europe, not merely Norway.

                Continental Europe didn't have any surplus population to spare following the Black Death, and people weren't exactly lining up to get into - of all places - plague-ravaged Norway.

                Another thing several of you are neglecting is the fact that Scandinavia includes Denmark and does not include Finland. And R1b is the single largest y-haplogroup in Denmark and probably always has been.

                The other evidence has been mentioned already.

                Like I said, I am not disparaging I1a; at least two and possibly three of the male lines in my own family are I1a (I don't know about all of them, obviously). But I1a is a far more circumscribed y-haplogroup than R1b is.

                I don't think Scandinavia ever was the realm of a single y-haplogroup. Its archaeological remains are diverse, just as its people have always been.

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                • Originally posted by Stevo
                  What you may be neglecting to consider is that the Black Death impacted ALL of Europe, not merely Norway.

                  Continental Europe didn't have any surplus population to spare following the Black Death, and people weren't exactly lining up to get into - of all places - plague-ravaged Norway.

                  Another thing several of you are neglecting is the fact that Scandinavia includes Denmark and does not include Finland. And R1b is the single largest y-haplogroup in Denmark and probably always has been.
                  Man, Stevo, you are contentious.

                  By golly, it had never occured to me that the Black Death impacted the rest of Europe. Shucks, I guess they didn't learn me that out here in Colorado.

                  Norway was among the last, if not the last European country to be impacted by the plague in 1349. As an addendum to my earlier post, some sources indicate that the 2/3's of the population figure is high, indicating it was probably more like 50% of the population, over a six month period. Deaths from the plague cropped up periodically over the next century and these are sometimes counted as part of the initial epidemic.

                  Once the disease had coursed through the population, as with most epidemics, it was done (although not completely, as I said above). I am sure people outside of Norway were not lining up to get on the first ship over the water, but it is demostrable that numerous Danes went over to Norway. There is evidence of that in my own family. Did that contribute all of the R1b to Norway? Of course not.

                  Truly, Finland is not always considered part of Scandinavia. But by tradition and history, in many respects, Finland is part of Scandinavia. Finnish vikings were among the most fierce and were said to be capable of summoning the wind.

                  No one would argue that Denmark is largely R1b. My Danish heritage just happens to be I1a.

                  Alas, perhaps there is no I1a Shang Ri La. But can't you let us hang on to the dream? Must your R1b steamroller smash us down?

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                  • I don't think I'm the one talking about smashing down and excluding.

                    I think there were a number of y-haplogroups in Scandinavia in prehistoric times whose descendants are still there today.

                    Those who argue with me seem to want to make everyone but I1a and N3 guys latecomers, post-Black Death immigrants.

                    And I am not the one who is "contentious" either. This thread was headed toward a well-deserved rest in the graveyard of the back pages until someone (not me) started up the old I1a vs. R1b-in-Scandinavia argument again.

                    Here is a telling quote from this scientific study, a study conducted by researchers from the National Board of Forensic Medicine, Department of Forensic Genetics and Forensic Toxicology, Linköping, Sweden; the Department of Archaeology, University of Tromsø, Norway; and the Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University, Sweden.

                    Originally posted by Y-Chromosome Diversity in Sweden: A Long-time Perspective
                    Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1b3 were found to have the highest STR variation among all haplogroups and could thus be considered to be one of the earliest major male lineages present in Sweden. Regional haplotype variation, within R1b3, also showed a difference between two regions in the south of Sweden. This can also be traced from historical time and is visible in archaeological material.
                    BTW, R1b is the majority y-haplogroup in Denmark. It is also very well represented in Sweden and Norway.

                    http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf
                    Last edited by Stevo; 6 June 2006, 08:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stevo
                      I don't think I'm the one talking about smashing down and excluding.

                      I think there were a number of y-haplogroups in Scandinavia in prehistoric times whose descendants are still there today.

                      Those who argue with me seem to want to make everyone but I1a and N3 guys latecomers, post-Black Death immigrants.

                      And I am not the one who is "contentious" either. This thread was headed toward a well-deserved rest in the graveyard of the back pages until someone (not me) started up the old I1a vs. R1b-in-Scandinavia argument again.

                      Here is a telling quote from this scientific study, a study conducted by researchers from the National Board of Forensic Medicine, Department of Forensic Genetics and Forensic Toxicology, Linköping, Sweden; the Department of Archaeology, University of Tromsø, Norway; and the Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University, Sweden.


                      BTW, R1b is the majority y-haplogroup in Denmark. It is also very well represented in Sweden and Norway.

                      http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf
                      Stevo-

                      I have read many of your posts and I have seen how you and Eki have been battling these last few months (it seems like). I would say, based on these observations, that you are contentious. It is not necessarily a criticism but I do think you like to argue. I would also say that you battle this thing down like Ahab against Moby Dick every time it comes up. I have seen it in several threads now. You only wish it would go away because some people do not entirely agree with you.

                      I actually find the debate interesting, especially with the comments from your chief antagonists in Scandinavia or semi-Scandinavia, as we clarified earlier. Perhaps we should call the region "Norden," as it is referred to in Byron J. Nordstrom's book "Scandinavia." I have learned quite a bit by reading these posts. While I do disagree somewhat with you, I appreciate the debate you stir up.

                      You are funny and many of your posts are quite good natured. I am amused that you take this I1a issue so seriously and miss some of the humor in my own post. Your introduction of German into a post was masterful. I will use "uralt" as often as I can now. Seriously. You took me to skolen on that one! It is in that light that I made the steamroller comment.

                      Obviously, ruefully, there is no I1a Shang Ri La, at least not proved anyhow. Maybe Iceland. I don't know. I suppose it has some R1b too. Probably got there after the Plague. Greenland is out.

                      Additionally, I do clearly comment that R1b is the majority haplogroup in Denmark, so that is not really in my face. R1b, as the predominant group in western Europe, obviously has a significant place in Scandinavia. If I1a did not arrive in Scandinavia until Roman times, well then, so be it. R1b was there first. I don't think it is that cut and dried yet. As with most things, the answer is found somewhere in the middle.

                      In the spirit of good natured banter, I mean you no ill will. I mean really, two years ago, all I really cared about in this regard was that my dad is Danish/ Norwegian and my mom is Norwegian. That was good enough for me. Now, I am a prideful and ancient I1a!

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                      • I love R1B

                        I have close matches in Switzerland and England.

                        Can I claim the Amesbury Archer as my
                        genetic link to England, from Switzerland ?

                        Here is a guy who possibly grew up in the Alps and moved to Stonehenge. http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects...ry/archer.html

                        I wonder which Y dna group he actually belonged to?

                        A couple copper items buried with him have element traces to Spain and France..where i have more matches..especially France.

                        I tried to find out if any mt dna had been gathered from his tooth samples, but I couldn't find anything.

                        I wonder what the name of his tribe was?..or was he a Soldier of fortune 4300 years ago.
                        Last edited by M.O'Connor; 7 June 2006, 12:02 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by cobramach

                          I actually find the debate interesting, especially with the comments from your chief antagonists in Scandinavia or semi-Scandinavia, as we clarified earlier. Perhaps we should call the region "Norden," as it is referred to in Byron J. Nordstrom's book "Scandinavia." I have learned quite a bit by reading these posts. While I do disagree somewhat with you, I appreciate the debate you stir up.
                          Yes, "Scandinavia" is even more vague concept than "America", which is sometimes used to refer to the whole continent and sometimes just to the USA.

                          I'd like to remind that I've already given some land to Stevo. The I1a-R1b line in our battle now goes through southern Sweden. Denmark has already long been R1b turf. So, Stevo now holds southern Scandinavia, I hold central Scandinavia and western Finland, and Noaide's N holds northern Scandinavia.
                          Last edited by Eki; 7 June 2006, 01:20 AM.

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                          • One of you guys better let me through to Ireland.

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                            • I found an interesting antropological map in Kalevi Wiik's book "Suomalaisten juuret" (Roots of Finns). He had calculated what he calls "north-western percentage" for 74 different area in Europe based on how blond, tall, big headed and narrow faced people are (I guess a tall narrow faced blonde with big head would be 100%). I'll try to post the map scanned as an attachment. I don't know if it works, since I've never tried it before here.

                              Anyway, the percentage for western Finland 84% differs much from the percentage for central Finland 69%. The closest match nearby for western Finland can be found in central Norway around the Trondheim area. I think that further supports my theory that people have moved from central Norway to western Finland in pre-historic times. Scotland and southern Denmark also have 84%, but they are further away.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Eki
                                Yes, "Scandinavia" is even more vague concept than "America", which is sometimes used to refer to the whole continent and sometimes just to the USA.

                                I'd like to remind that I've already given some land to Stevo. The I1a-R1b line in our battle now goes through southern Sweden. Denmark has already long been R1b turf. So, Stevo now holds southern Scandinavia, I hold central Scandinavia and western Finland, and Noaide's N holds northern Scandinavia.
                                Sounds like a game of Risk!

                                Do you all play that up there?

                                From what I can tell from my own genealogical research and from looking at the male lines in my family that have submitted y-dna tests, my own body would be carved up by this debate!

                                As I said before, at least two of my lines (one paternal, one maternal) are I1a. There is a third that looks like it probably is, but I haven't firmed up the connection there yet. I just found out a week or so ago that my paternal grandmother's male line may be R1a (got to firm that one up, too).

                                Anyway, I apologize for being "contentious," if that's what I've been.

                                I have at least two Danish lines of descent, one from Bornholm (in the Baltic, off the coast of Sweden). All I know about the other one is that he was Danish; he first shows up working as a bodyguard for the Duke of Oldenburg in Germany in the 17th century.

                                None of us is entirely one thing or another.

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