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  • #46
    Originally posted by Stevo

    "One of the earliest" does not mean last.
    I never said anything about R1b being the last in Sweden. If you look at the data MMaddi provided us a link to, you'll notice that there are also haplogroups like J, G, I1c and E3b1 in Sweden, and I believe all of them arrived after R1b:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201651x2.xls

    Comment


    • #47
      Here's a link to a page which both sides in this debate will want to cite - http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r..._in_europe.htm This page is an analysis of the different geographic types of R1b found throughout Europe, using data from www.yhrd.org, which is a database of yDNA results from various scientific studies.

      Here's a quote from the relevant section on North Sea-Baltic R1b: "Within the North Sea-Baltic area (Northern Germany, Denmark, Netherlands and
      Norway) a sample of 1,227 haplotypes showed the R1b DYS390 percentages to be:

      DYS 390=25... 10.1%.
      DYS 390=24... 46.6%.
      DYS 390=23... 38.1%.
      DYS 390=22... 3.7%.

      Diversity: 61.5% (²)

      These percentages were less diverse than in the Russian-Baltic area - supporting the likelihood of an R1b migration/expansion from east to west along the Baltic coast. The coastal parts of the North Sea-Baltic region had more R1b diversity than in Norway and in the (German) Elbe river cities, indicating a further migration - from "Greater Frisia"(³) northwards to Norway and southwards into the Saxon lands alongside the Elbe.(4) Ultimately, North Sea-Baltic R1bs invaded England and other parts of British Isles during the period 450 to 1,000AD as part of the Germanic-speaking Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking invasion forces."

      Further down this page, there is a comparison of the relative ages of the various forms of R1b: "A simple application of the different levels of diversity of the four variants to the known archaeology of the Atlantic countries suggests that the ages of the variants, since separation from an earlier, parent type, may, approximately, be as follows:

      Atlantic group c.14-18,000 ybp;
      Alpine-South German c.18,000 - 22,000 ybp;
      NorthSea-Baltic c. 21,000- 25,000 ybp, and
      Russian-Baltic possibly c. 24,000 - 28,000 ybp.

      More work needs to be done on this aspect, and on the question of where the variant R1bs may have existed during the Last Glacial Maximum."

      As you can see this analysis argues for a relatively early development of R1b in the North Sea-Baltic area, which includes Norway, compared to Alpine-South German and Atlantic.

      However, there is a note about Sweden which sounds a note of uncertainty: "*4* Data from Sweden was excluded both Baltic groups. Some of its data accords with them, but other data suggests that Sweden and Polish Gdansk may have received a later input of Central European R1bs from Bohemia. These R1bs might have been intermingled with the later inruption of R1as northwards across the Baltic."

      As I said, both sides in this debate will find support in this analysis, so go at it, boys!

      Mike

      Comment


      • #48
        An addendum to my previous post

        I should add that I am still inclined more toward Stevo's position on the Swedish question. Note that the last link I provided was for an analysis done in March, 2005. The first link I provided, for a study specifically about Sweden by Swedish researchers just published this month, is what sways me towards Stevo's arguments.

        However, I don't know much about Swedish or Scandinavian history, so if the other side in this debate can give me some persuasive historical facts that are weighty enough to support late foreign migration to Sweden to account for the R1b levels there, maybe they are right, as the footnote about Sweden in the last analysis I cited may indicate. I just haven't seen any persuasive historical fact-based arguments from the other side to convince me.

        Mike

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Eki
          I never said anything about R1b being the last in Sweden. If you look at the data MMaddi provided us a link to, you'll notice that there are also haplogroups like J, G, I1c and E3b1 in Sweden, and I believe all of them arrived after R1b:

          http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201651x2.xls
          The researchers said that R1b is one of the earliest of the major male lineages in Sweden.

          You make it the last of the major male lineages.

          The others you listed are much smaller groups.

          Comment


          • #50
            MMaddi,

            In another tread I did mention the immigration history of Norway that also apply I believe for Sweden. The migration history is long and regarding Norway, In Dupuy 2005 West, South, East Norway showed closest relatednes to the Germans and the Danes. So did the major cities Bergen and Oslo. In particular south Norway showed closed relatednes to the Danes and the Dutch.

            http://vetinari.sitesled.com/norway.pdf

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MMaddi
              Here's a link to a page which both sides in this debate will want to cite - http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r..._in_europe.htm

              However, there is a note about Sweden which sounds a note of uncertainty: "*4* Data from Sweden was excluded both Baltic groups. Some of its data accords with them, but other data suggests that Sweden and Polish Gdansk may have received a later input of Central European R1bs from Bohemia. These R1bs might have been intermingled with the later inruption of R1as northwards across the Baltic."
              Well, at least that supports my theory that R1b isn't as old as I1a in Sweden. The fact there are R1b in Finland mainly on the western coast, which had an influx of Swedish immigrants in the medieval times and is still partly Swedish-speaking, in my opinion shows R1b isn't as old in Sweden as I1a. There was a trade route between western Finland and central Norway through Sweden already in the Iron Age. That's when, why and how I believe I1a arrived in Finland.

              Comment


              • #52
                yes, but you were wrong to suggest it was something recent

                like in historical times.

                You were not the only one, of course.

                It's been there for many thousands of years, as Stevo has argued.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by NormanGalway
                  like in historical times.

                  You were not the only one, of course.

                  It's been there for many thousands of years, as Stevo has argued.
                  If 1000 or 2000 is "many thousands", then yes. Stevo was talking about the Stone Age, right after the Ice Age about 10,000 years ago.

                  I personally believe R1b arrived in Sweden and Norway in late Iron Age (maybe after 500 AD) and kept growing during the middle ages.
                  Last edited by Eki; 25 May 2006, 03:26 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Eki
                    If 1000 or 2000 is "many thousands", then yes. Stevo was talking about the Stone Age, right after the Ice Age about 10,000 years ago.
                    Look at the quote I had from the analysis of the ages of the various R1b geographical variants. The author estimates the North Sea-Baltic variety, which includes Denmark and Norway, to be 21,000-25,000 years old. The analysis leaves open the question of R1b's in Sweden. However, the (more recent) Swedish study that I linked to last night seems to remove that doubt.

                    I think you're arguing against all the evidence that I know about.

                    Mike

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MMaddi
                      Look at the quote I had from the analysis of the ages of the various R1b geographical variants. The author estimates the North Sea-Baltic variety, which includes Denmark and Norway, to be 21,000-25,000 years old.
                      The author doesn't tell where that variant lived 21,000-25,000 years ago. I'm pretty sure they weren't in Norway or Sweden, and even if they were, they probably had to leave for south when the Ice Age came.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        since your belief is not disprovable, Eki...

                        ie, it is not disproven by empirical evidence to the contrary, it must be classed a religious -- or at least metaphysical -- belief and is therefore not worth discussing further with those interested in the scientific method.

                        If a theory cannot be disproven (and it seems in your mind yours cannot) it cannot be tested.

                        Therefore, it is a matter of personal faith and belief. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you would like. Only it is a mistake to couch or defend it in rational terms.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by NormanGalway
                          ie, it is not disproven by empirical evidence to the contrary, it must be classed a religious -- or at least metaphysical -- belief and is therefore not worth discussing further with those interested in the scientific method.

                          If a theory cannot be disproven (and it seems in your mind yours cannot) it cannot be tested.

                          Therefore, it is a matter of personal faith and belief. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you would like. Only it is a mistake to couch or defend it in rational terms.
                          Funny that there are three members here from Nordic countries (me from Finland and Noaide and Wena from Norway) who say R1b hasn't probably been here longer than 2000 years. Then there are several Americans who claim they have, even when none of the scientific evidence you have shown claim R1b has been here longer than 2000 years. All they've said is "R1b is one of the oldest haplogroups in Sweden" and nothing about how long it has been there. I guess it's typical for Americans. They insist they are always right in world politics, so I guess they feel the same way about world history and geography. It's just the younger generation of Americans, probably a bunch of illegal immigrants anyway, who can't even tell Lousiana or Iraq on the map.

                          End of discussion, since it looks like we can't do it in a civilized manner.
                          Last edited by Eki; 25 May 2006, 04:49 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            your rant even further reveals...

                            that this is a personal, faith-based feeling and nothing rational. You feel offended because this belief is very emotional and personal to you. I will leave why to the psychologists.

                            BTW, what does national origin have to do with scientific method?
                            answer: nothing.

                            so who cares what three scandinavians "feel" about a haplotype's age?
                            Nobody.

                            This is not because they are scandinavian. Most scandinavians are quite cool and rational.

                            The good news is you have put your cards on the table so everyone can see what you are and not waste any time discussing things with you.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              OK, now that I've cooled down after NormanGalway's personal insults. Let's bring some "rationale" to the discussion. There seems to be others who think R1b didn't start to combine with I1a and R1a until the first century BC (that's about 2000 years ago):

                              http://www.northseabalticgroup.org/newsletterapril.htm

                              RATIONALE: There is historic evidence that, during the first century, BC, 'Celtic' R1b groups in the 'Germanic' part of continental, North Western Europe began to combine (and intermarry) with other groups, such as the Teutons, Slavs and Wends ( who possessed R1a and I1a y-dna) to form homogenous, Germanic speaking populations, to defend their territories against the Roman Empire. Recent research has shown that, later, within England, and to a lesser extent within the Scottish border areas, when the Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking incursions took place the indigenous, ancient British R1b (Celtic) population was largely dispersed and replaced by the invaders, whose Germanic R1b (North Sea version), R1a, and I1a y-dna became the dominant strains in those areas. In England, the invaders y-dna eventually accounted for about 67% of the newly-established 'English' male population, with the ancient British accounting for about 33%. Within the now mixed Germanic/British R1b population, of England, about 55% of the males have Germanic, 'Celtic' paternal ancestry descent, rather than ancient British. In particular, there is evidence that the R1b values of 23/11 for DYS 390 and DYS391 markers within England, and in some parts of Scotland, are especially likely to have deeper Germanic paternal ancestry: These marker values occur much more frequently in the coastal areas of Denmark and the Netherlands, and within England, but remain much less frequent within the remaining Celtic R1b areas of the British Isles.

                              A.A. Foster, 20th December. 2004

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Am I the only one wondering why there is major heartburn over the early presence of R1b in Scandinavia?

                                Those Swedish researchers concluded that R1b is one of the earliest major male lineages in Sweden. There are only three major y-haplogroups in Sweden: I1a, R1b, and R1a. There are four if one includes N. The rest represent minor male lineages in that region.

                                In order to be "one of the earliest" of three or at the most four major male lineages, R1b would have had to arrive in Scandinavia first or second.

                                I agree I1a probably got there first, at least in Sweden, where it is clearly the best-represented y-haplogroup. Denmark, on the other hand, is R1b country and probably always has been.

                                What first convinced me that R1b got to Scandinavia during the prehistoric period was reading that different kinds of prehistoric human remains have been found there, including Cro-Magnon remains. Then there is the fact that R1b is extremely well represented in Scandinavia, too well represented to have arrived there recently, unless one can, of course, show that a genuine mass influx of immigrants occurred at some point. There is no evidence of such a mass influx.

                                The existence of a specific Norwegian modal haplotype of R1b is also a compelling indicator that R1b has resided there since prehistoric times.

                                Really, in the end, who cares whether or not R1b got to Scandinavia early?

                                I certainly don't.

                                When I first began arguing with our Scandinavian friends, I had no idea I was R1b. The males in two of my family lines (one on my mom's side, one on my dad's) have been confirmed as I1a. Another one is very likely I1a, and I just found out that another might very possibly be R1a (my paternal grandmother's line).

                                So I certainly have no axe to grind against the I1as or my fellow Rs, the R1as.

                                It is a funny happenstance (given these repeated disputes) that my own haplotype conforms most closely to the R1b-Frisian and the R1b-Norwegian (yes, it's true). Personally, since I suspect that my male line may have been Dutch-American, I imagine the Frisian will be confirmed and the Norwegian will prove to have been very similar only at 25 markers.

                                Anyway, I apologize for offending anyone. I would prefer to make friends here, not enemies.

                                The evidence convinces me that R1b arrived in Scandinavia very early but probably after I1a.

                                If others disagree, well, okay.

                                I am tired of arguing about this stuff.
                                Last edited by Stevo; 25 May 2006, 07:47 PM.

                                Comment

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