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  • #31
    Exactly, it might as well be the result of migration.

    The best way is to compare these haplotypes with databases of other european populations.

    Originally posted by Eki
    I don't get it. I bet also the US has a high STR variation of R1b, and we know R1b hasn't probably been there longer than 500 years. I mean, can't the high STR variation also mean that men from different parts of Europe moved to the area?

    Comment


    • #32
      OK, I compared somesome populations at http://www.yhrd.org/

      First I took Värmland as Population 1 and compared it to population starting with the letter A. The following populations shared at least one haplotype with Värmland, Sweden:

      - Adana, Southern Turkey [Eti]
      - Albania
      - Alcamo, Italy
      - Andalucia/Extremadnra, Spain
      - Ankara, Turkey
      - Antioquia, Colombia [European]
      - Argentina [European]
      - Azores, Portugal

      Then I did the same for Finland. Only two of the compared populations shared a haplotype with Finland. They were:

      - Albania
      - Argentina [European]

      Seems to me that Värmland, Sweden, has received quite a lot of immigrants. And that was just regions starting with the letter A. You can do the same comparison for other regions too, if you like.

      Comment


      • #33
        I did the same comparisions for population starting with the letter B. There were 27 of them. Värmland shared at least one haplotype with 20 of them and Finland only with 7.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by MMaddi
          I've been lurking in the various threads where you folks have been debating the source of R1b in Scandinavia and Sweden in particular. I don't know enough about Scandinavian history in general to form a very strong opinion on this, although Stevo's arguments sound credible to me.

          Anyway, here is a link for a new study on Swedish yDNA, which was posted on the Genealogy-DNA e-mail list - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201651a.html It's late and I don't have time to read it, but here's a quote from the abstract: "Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1b3 were found to have the highest STR variation among all haplogroups and could thus be considered to be one of the earliest major male lineages present in Sweden. Regional haplotype variation, within R1b3, also showed a difference between two regions in the south of Sweden. This can also be traced from historical time and is visible in archaeological material."

          That seems to support Stevo's contention that R1b has been around for a long time in Scandinavia, but I'll leave it to everyone debating this to decide what this study actually shows.

          Mike Maddi
          Thank you, Mike.

          The archaeological evidence supports that quote, as well: Cro-Magnon skeletons in Scandinavia.

          It is not likely Scandinavia ever was the domain of any single y-haplogroup. I1a got there early, but so did R1b, R1a, N, and possibly some of the others, too.

          Ken Nordtvedt, himself I1a, has identified some unique R1b modal haplotypes, one of them Norwegian. The Frisian modals are also common in Denmark (I am not sure about the R1b modals in Sweden). He has also identified some Norwegian or Nordic modals for R1a. See the chart here. It is my understanding that unique modal haplotypes do not develop in just a few short centuries. They require a lot of time.

          I don't understand the motivation behind the arguments that R1b - the biggest y-haplogroup in Denmark and extremely well represented in Norway and Sweden (not to mention the biggest y-haplogroup in Europe as a whole) - is a latecomer to Scandinavia.

          It is amazing to me that following your posting of that SWEDISH genetic study, Noaide and Eki did not admit the obvious: that that study is the nail in the coffin of their arguments.

          Instead Noaide posted a rather lame argument that what those Swedish researchers called "one of the earliest major male lineages present in Sweden" could be the product of recent immigration!

          Eki followed up with his own "scientific research".

          It is obvious that the evidence is not what matters here.

          Defending cherished preconceptions is more important.

          How does one argue with such things?
          Last edited by Stevo; 25 May 2006, 07:01 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Stevo
            Instead Noaide posted a rather lame argument that what those Swedish researchers called "one of the earliest major male lineages present in Sweden" could be the product of recent immigration!
            You better begin improve your lame reading capability of your own language. What I was commenting on was the STR variation in Sweden that might well be the result of migration and therefore should be compared to databases of other countries. I would not think asking that question is lame.

            Else I have never concluded that R1b is a total stranger in Scandinavia, but among the Saami population it is scare and if the Saami are representative for the earliest Scandinavian settlement there has never been much of it in older times.

            Here is a link to the distribution table

            http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5...600/sweden.jpg

            As far as I can see the R1b3 is more frequent in certain areas.
            Last edited by Noaide; 25 May 2006, 07:38 AM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Noaide
              You better begin improve your lame reading capability of your own language. What I was commenting on was the STR variation in Sweden that might well be the result of migration and therefore should be compared to databases of other countries. I would not think asking that question is lame.

              Else I have never concluded that R1b is a total stranger in Scandinavia, but among the Saami population it is scare and if the Saami are representative for the earliest Scandinavian settlement there has never been much of it in older times.
              I said your argument was lame. I did not engage in an ad hominem attack on you as you just did on me.

              It is the classic mark of a an extremely weak and dying argument that its author begins to lash out at his opponents with ad hominem invectives.

              I read very well, thank you.

              The Lapps (Saami) are an isolated minority in the far north of Scandinavia. They are not representative of the population as a whole and yet even they have R1b present in their population.

              Most of the human settlement of Scandinavia occurred in the south, where most of the arable land is. There Cro-Magnon skeletons have been found, as well as Combe-Capelle skeletons. Cro-Magnons have been associated by researchers with R1b. Combe-Capelle, Gravettian folks have been associated with I.

              The Swedish researchers in the study at the link posted by Mike Maddi concluded that R1b represented one of the earliest male lineages in Sweden.

              There is a unique Norwegian modal haplotype of R1b, as well, and it did not develop overnight.

              You are mistaken when you argue that the level of R1b in Scandinavia is the product of fairly recent immigration.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Stevo
                I said your argument was lame. I did not engage in an ad hominem attack on you as you just did on me.

                It is the classic mark of a an extremely weak and dying argument that its author begins to lash out at his opponents with ad hominem invectives.
                Exactly the same, as when you say my argument is lame you quite explicit call your opponent stupid, that is an argument against the person. Your most welcome to tell my arguments are wrong with backup of your own argument, but with the wording you use it is exactly the same. In a normal discussion the wording "lame" is inflamable.

                Comment


                • #38
                  R1b3 distribution in Sweden

                  Region Percentage

                  Skaraborg 37,8 %
                  Ostergotland/Jonkoping 31,7 %
                  Uppsala 25,5 %
                  Sweden tot 23,6 %
                  Blekninge/Kristianstad 22,0 %
                  Varmland 16,7 %
                  Gotland 15,0 %
                  Vasterbotten 14,6 %
                  Swedish Saami 7,9 %
                  Osterbotten 2,5 %

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Noaide
                    Region Percentage

                    Skaraborg 37,8 %
                    Ostergotland/Jonkoping 31,7 %
                    Uppsala 25,5 %
                    Sweden tot 23,6 %
                    Blekninge/Kristianstad 22,0 %
                    Varmland 16,7 %
                    Gotland 15,0 %
                    Vasterbotten 14,6 %
                    Swedish Saami 7,9 %
                    Osterbotten 2,5 %
                    Pretty significant numbers.

                    Tough to argue that most of the R1b in Scandinavia is the product of recent immigration.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Stevo
                      Pretty significant numbers.
                      Yes, and the fact their frequency isn't the same in every part of Sweden clearly shows that they did not come to Sweden with other haplogroups a long time ago. The gradients will even out over time and the population will be homogenous if new blood isn't added in. Look at the gradient lines of I1a and R1b on the Relative Genetics' maps. At least to me, the gradient lines of R1b look deeper than I1a and are concentrated mainly in southern Sweden.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Data from Swedish study

                        Here's the link to another posting on the Swedish study, which was in reply to the posting of the link last night to the study itself - http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-05/1148519301

                        There you can look at all the haplotypes that were used in the study. Unfortunately, the full study itself requires a subscription for download. If anyone is interested, maybe they can go to a good nearby university library and find it.

                        Mike

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Thanks

                          Thanks for the haplotype data MMaddi.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Eki
                            Yes, and the fact their frequency isn't the same in every part of Sweden clearly shows that they did not come to Sweden with other haplogroups a long time ago. The gradients will even out over time and the population will be homogenous if new blood isn't added in. Look at the gradient lines of I1a and R1b on the Relative Genetics' maps. At least to me, the gradient lines of R1b look deeper than I1a and are concentrated mainly in southern Sweden.
                            Funny thing: your conclusion is the opposite of that of the Swedish researchers who conducted that study.

                            They concluded that R1b is one of the earliest male lineages in Sweden.

                            I don't think they are wrong.

                            I think you are.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Stevo
                              Funny thing: your conclusion is the opposite of that of the Swedish researchers who conducted that study.

                              They concluded that R1b is one of the earliest male lineages in Sweden.

                              I don't think they are wrong.

                              I think you are.
                              You have the right to believe what you want. But it's interesting that you think the scientists are wrong about evolution and right about genography of Sweden. Don't you think that if they have been mistaken in the theory of evolution they could also be mistaken in the genography of Sweden? Besides, they said R1b is ONE of the oldest haplogroups in Sweden. I agree with that, what I've been saying is that I think R1b is NOT AS OLD AS I1a, N and maybe even R1a in Sweden and Norway.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Eki
                                You have the right to believe what you want. But it's interesting that you think the scientists are wrong about evolution and right about genography of Sweden. Don't you think that if they have been mistaken in the theory of evolution they could also be mistaken in the genography of Sweden? Besides, they said R1b is ONE of the oldest haplogroups in Sweden. I agree with that, what I've been saying is that I think R1b is NOT AS OLD AS I1a, N and maybe even R1a in Sweden and Norway.
                                If I asked one of those scientists the time, and he mistakenly told me it was 12:30 instead of 12:15, would that mean he must always be wrong?

                                Besides, studying the dna patterns in living Swedish men is possible to get right, even for someone who is mistaken about a whole host of other things.

                                If the scientists say that R1b is one of the earliest major male lineages in Sweden, that doesn't leave much room for making it the latest arrival among the major lineages there, now, does it?

                                "One of the earliest" does not mean last.

                                Comment

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