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  • Originally posted by vineviz
    Actually, there are almost certainly two. I've been SNP-tested, but there is another member (kit# 55854 / ySearch# ZFT26) with Sicilian roots who is almost certainly I1a as well but is conservatively predicted as "I" by FTDNA.

    Note the tell-tale DYS455=8, among other things.
    Yep, that's very interesting.
    Furthermore, I've noticed there are some R1a's in the Sicily Project, whereas there are none in the Italy Project...I1a and R1a in Sicily: the offspring of the Normans??

    Comment


    • Originally posted by vineviz
      Actually, there are almost certainly two. I've been SNP-tested, but there is another member (kit# 55854 / ySearch# ZFT26) with Sicilian roots who is almost certainly I1a as well but is conservatively predicted as "I" by FTDNA.

      Note the tell-tale DYS455=8, among other things.
      He is a member of the Sicily Project, #13 on our haplotype table. Running his markers through Whit Athey's predictor, you get I1a-70/J-44 in the first round and I1a-44/J-18 in the second round. Not conclusive, but it looks like he's I1a.

      Mike

      Comment


      • Originally posted by F.E.C.
        Yep, that's very interesting.
        Furthermore, I've noticed there are some R1a's in the Sicily Project, whereas there are none in the Italy Project...I1a and R1a in Sicily: the offspring of the Normans??
        That's what I think, offspring of Normans. What really surprises me is the level of G in the Sicily Project - 7 out of 57. That's about 12%.

        Mike

        Comment


        • Originally posted by F.E.C.
          Actually, I can't tell which subclade of R1b1c spent the LGM in Italy, but it seems obvious to me that people wintered in the Italian peninsula.
          They often mention the Balkans or Iberia, whereas Italy is seldom indicated as a possible refugium for R1b.
          I'm puzzled because in my position everithing is possible: I could be the g-g-g-g-grandson of a Germanic invader or descend from a deep native. Afterall, Mike and I have extremely diverse haplotypes although both of us belong to the same subclade. This is a sign that R1b1c9 should be old in Italy, isn't it?
          Yeah, and it is just more evidence that R1b gets older as one moves east from Iberia and the WAMH.

          I think R1b began its life in Iberia with the arrival of the Celts and that Iberia was no Ice Age refuge.

          I am obviously no expert, but I can recognize the difference between evidence and guesswork based on assumptions.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MMaddi
            That's what I think, offspring of Normans. What really surprises me is the level of G in the Sicily Project - 7 out of 57. That's about 12%.

            Mike
            Norman descent makes a lot of sense in Sicily and would explain your English affinity.

            Where do you think the G came from? Any historical evidence that the Romans stationed Alans or Sarmatians there? They could also account for some of that R1a.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Stevo
              Where do you think the G came from? Any historical evidence that the Romans stationed Alans or Sarmatians there? They could also account for some of that R1a.
              I think I had mentioned on one of the threads here what was pointed out to me by Ray Banks, who is knowledgeable about G. This is the fact that Alans were in Sicily after the breakup of the Roman Empire. They were allies of the Vandals in Spain and Portugal and were assigned duties in Sicily. Here are a couple of links to pages on Ray's website that refer to this:
              http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/G2Ideas
              http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/MoreG2

              This seems like an interesting lead, but I wonder if Alan presence for what is probably a short period of time could account for a level of 12% of G's in the Sicily Project. I think that it's also been pointed out that G is found in significant levels among Arab populations. Given the Muslim presence in Sicily, that might be a factor in the G level among project members.

              Mike

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MMaddi
                I think I had mentioned on one of the threads here what was pointed out to me by Ray Banks, who is knowledgeable about G. This is the fact that Alans were in Sicily after the breakup of the Roman Empire. They were allies of the Vandals in Spain and Portugal and were assigned duties in Sicily. Here are a couple of links to pages on Ray's website that refer to this:
                http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/G2Ideas
                http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/MoreG2

                This seems like an interesting lead, but I wonder if Alan presence for what is probably a short period of time could account for a level of 12% of G's in the Sicily Project. I think that it's also been pointed out that G is found in significant levels among Arab populations. Given the Muslim presence in Sicily, that might be a factor in the G level among project members.

                Mike
                Interesting. Do you know which clade of G predominates among the Arabs? I believe G2 is the one attributed to the Alans/Sarmatians because of its prevalence among modern Ossetians. Is it possible to tell Arab G from Alan G?

                12% is a pretty significant percentage.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by vineviz
                  No, there is nothing special about the DNA of royalty.

                  If your yDNA or mtDNA closely matched someone of known decent from royalty AND you had some documentation that tied you to that line of decent, I'd say it'd be resonable to conclude decent for yourself. I don't think the DNA alone would be enough to make the connection.
                  My interests actually came from family stories, and the Lady and the Tramp movie. I guess Disney was interested because of his family's history. In military school, the gang almost demands one to look into family history.

                  Originally posted by lgmayka
                  Not unless one of the social classes actually came from someplace completely different, with a completely different set of haplogroups. But such total disjointedness is rare, and difficult to enforce rigidly over time.
                  That would agree with what I find in my management theory essay. I assumed we traveled in groups while others were suggesting that supermen dominated others which caused the separation of classes. The first part of my draft reads something like the following:

                  Leadership: Father, Chief, Priest, King, Master, Manager


                  The three basic skills of a good manager are conceptual, interpersonal and technical expertises. Twentieth century management theory detail these skills in many essays, the bigger question springs up when we examine the history of management theory.

                  During the hunted phase of our prerecorded historic history, the needed to survive depended more on finding nutritional edibles while avoid being eaten. Somehow, a relationship between humans, wolves and horses began. The archaeological evidence for this seems to be present but fuzzy. Certainly, these animals were friendlier towards the humans than lions, tigers and bears. Perhaps, water and grazing areas were shared. Learning to get along with these creatures eventually led towards better survival skills for human, but not yet.

                  Human and apes first formed families. In the families, both male and female made stone tools. Technical advancements lead towards better survival. Children needed parental care. With better tools, the children lived longer and stronger. The female depended upon the male for protection and for food while the female provided companionship. Eventually, as human families grew larger, they began to explore and they traveled together. It is still unclear why humans developed speech some 200,000 years ago. Yet, it is no more of a mystery than why humans and a few other animals have hair on their head. Clearly, with communication, the humans changed from hunted to hunter-gathers.

                  Up until the modern stone age period (50,000 years ago), there were different types of humans. By this time, religious records can be found. The humans in the tropical regions developed different skills. For example, in the African region type II B muscles developed. Extra short term strength helped with escape and other survival technics. African technology also included agriculture around 10,000 years ago. The tropical American tribes developed agriculture, but the landscape did not demand the same sort of muscular development. Northern cultures depended upon hunting for a longer time which demanded different types of communication skills and conceptual knowledge. Between 50,000 and 10,000 years ago, art and tools provide us with a historical record. Evidentially, this nomadic period ended with a peaceful group called the temple builders who traveled around the world building various types of temples.

                  By 10,000 years ago, the bronze age, there is only one type of human being. The family is being replaced by tribes and clans of people. Clans differ from tribes because their leaders come from the same ancestors rather than a common ancestor. The loyalties between families and communities demanded the next big development in management.

                  Management theories developed due to sociological, economical and political environmental constraints. Human beings as hunter-gathers lived as families and groups of families. As families meet one another, they developed bartering systems to solve problems such as stealing and murder. When humans were hunted, they would scavenge food from other larger animals. If caught, they could become food themselves. With stone age tool and communications, the humans learned how to hunt for themselves. It became easier to use tools for food than to escape from being hunted. Obviously, the ethics of grabbing some fruit from a tree or taking some meat from a killed animal began when the hunter or worker argued with the scavenger. And clearly, a complex economic system had been developed by 10,000 years ago. Friendly animals who could not fit into the economical system like the dog, cat and horse were made to be pets and laborers.

                  Politics and managers begin with religious believes according to our earliest written accounts. Not all humans belonged to a family. Nevertheless, they were members of the culture or civilization. Early artifacts and tools from antiquity suggest human worship of some sort of deity. Over the years, most believes were based upon explanations of the unknown, of customs, and mythology.

                  Seven thousand years ago, Sumerian Temple Priests kept various records of how they managed large amounts of goods and estates. Perhaps, The Egyptian Management Principles are the most recognized developers. The Egyptian’s Government used centralization and decentralization policies. They used the written word with job descriptions, minimum wages to help planning, organization and the control of projects. Staff was also structured into lower class and higher class where honesty and effective communications were stressed.

                  Four thousand years ago, the Babylonians and Hebrews added the laws of Hammurabi and of Moses. The Hammurabi laws covered individual obligations to such things as real estate, trade, family and labor, loans, contracts while the later rules of Moses included concepts of organization and the delegation and exception principles. The Constitution of Chow included a directory of civil servants with their job and duties listed while introducing specialization and the use of standards in order to improve organization, functions, cooperation, efficiency and control techniques.

                  Well, I guess I can improve it with interviews and research.

                  Comment


                  • Did you all catch David Faux's latest post on the Rootsweb DNA List?

                    Here is the relevant portion of it:

                    Originally posted by David Faux
                    We have research samples for Norway and Friesland and are trying to assemble resources to test them for S26 and S29 (they have been tested for S21 and S28 with dramatic results - S21 being the most predominant form of R1b in the northern Germanic world).

                    Will keep all apprised about new developments.

                    David Faux.
                    Interesting info on S21, it seems to me. I would like to see the actual stats, though. It would be nice if they published the results of that study in a scientific paper and posted it on the internet so we could refer to it.

                    Comment


                    • I forgot to mention that in a previous post Dr. Faux said that 75% of the R1b they tested in Norway is S21+. I posted that message of his over on the R1b Project Forum in R1b News.

                      75% is a pretty high figure. I wonder how many Norwegian men his team tested. It would also be interesting to see their haplotypes and to know into which clusters they fall. More than one?

                      He also mentioned testing in Friesland. Was he talking about Nordtvedt's concept of "Greater Friesland," i.e., the Netherlands and North Germany, or was he speaking literally?

                      What were the results there?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stevo
                        I forgot to mention that in a previous post Dr. Faux said that 75% of the R1b they tested in Norway is S21+. I posted that message of his over on the R1b Project Forum in R1b News.

                        75% is a pretty high figure. I wonder how many Norwegian men his team tested. It would also be interesting to see their haplotypes and to know into which clusters they fall. More than one?

                        He also mentioned testing in Friesland. Was he talking about Nordtvedt's concept of "Greater Friesland," i.e., the Netherlands and North Germany, or was he speaking literally?

                        What were the results there?
                        Well, if you guys are frequenting either the Rootsweb DNA List or the R1b Project Forum, by now you know the answer to some of my questions above.

                        Dr. Faux says the S21+ in Friesland is above 75%. He also said that thus far they are unable to detect a correlative haplotype pattern but that that awaits some extensive statistical analysis. That is also true of the Norwegian sample, as well.

                        Comment


                        • Apparently Dr. James Wilson is going to publish that study of North German and Norwegian R1b (according to the most recent word from David Faux). It must have been serious then and conducted with the appropriate scientific rigor. That is promising.

                          Over 75% S21 in "Friesland" and about 75% in Norway.

                          Wow!

                          Too bad I have no idea whether or not I'm S21+!
                          Last edited by Stevo; 15 July 2006, 07:33 PM.

                          Comment


                          • According to David Faux's latest Rootsweb DNA List post on the subject, S21 has been fairly well isolated by testing as a North Germanic/Scandinavian R1b SNP.

                            Hey! My surname project's y-results page has been updated (as if anyone cared besides me!). Anyway, I am listed first, under Lancaster [Pennsylvania] - Wilhelm [Stephan] (my putative ancestor). Here it is, if you'd like a quick look. Glenn Stephens, our administrator, does a great job.



                            We are a small project (as you can see), but we have a new recruit whose results we are awaiting. Maybe he'll match one of us?

                            Comment


                            • I thought this was an interesting thought which might influences ideas of genetics.

                              All he said was that he was interested in was farming, but he became too busy to work the land. With war, the problem was keeping the land, and during that time his family eventually kept the land, now-a-days, people call natural farming, organic farming. Also, his wife said that her family took care of sheep long time ago. So, their histories were just like other people. And eventually, people got to know them for what they did.

                              How many times has this story been replayed for some many people?

                              Comment


                              • Greg -

                                I don't understand.

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