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  • Originally posted by F.E.C.
    You know, your ancestor's place of origin was part of the Duchy of Benevento and mine was in the Duchy of Spoleto. May we be the descendents of the Lombard settlers?
    Seems reasonable, thought its not a theory I had considered. I'll have to look into Lombard history a little more. This would probably mean a later arrival in Italy than the Roman legion theory. Perhaps if my surname project grows enough we can estimate how long the family has been in Latium.

    Also, Nordvedt et al. would probably consider me an I1a-AS (Anglo Saxon). I wonder if this is compatible with a Lombard origin? The Lombards were originally Scandinavian, right?

    There are also Spanish/Basque names -- Vizcarra & Vizcaya -- that are somewhat similar to mine (Vizzaccaro). Southern Latium was part of the Kingdom of Naples during more recent history, and the Kingdom of Naples was in turn ruled by the Spanish for long periods of that time.

    Some many theories, so little DNA. . .
    vineviz
    Registered User
    Last edited by vineviz; 13 July 2006, 09:31 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by vineviz
      Seems reasonable, thought its not a theory I had considered. I'll have to look into Lombard history a little more. This would probably mean a later arrival in Italy than the Roman legion theory. Perhaps if my surname project grows enough we can estimate how long the family has been in Latium.

      Also, Nordvedt et al. would probably consider me an I1a-AS (Anglo Saxon). I wonder if this is compatible with a Lombard origin? The Lombards were originally Scandinavian, right?

      There are also Spanish/Basque names -- Vizcarra & Vizcaya -- that are somewhat similar to mine (Vizzaccaro). Southern Latium was part of the Kingdom of Naples during more recent history, and the Kingdom of Naples was in turn ruled by the Spanish for long periods of that time.

      Some many theories, so little DNA. . .
      Much of what we know of Lombard history comes from the writings of Paul the Deacon, an 8th-century Benedictine monk who happened also to be a Lombard, the son of Warnefrid.

      According to Paul, the Lombards did indeed come from Scandinavia. Known as the Langobards or Longbeards, they came from southern Sweden (Gwyn Jones, A History of the Vikings, p. 23; J.M Wallace-Hadrill, The Barbarian West, 400-1000, pp. 43-63). By the 2nd century A.D. Ptolemy recorded that they were living near the mouth of the Elbe River in North Germany.

      As you know, the Lombards eventually gave their name to the region of northern Italy in which they settled.

      Most of them were apparently R1b, however, since that is the y-haplogroup most commonly found among their descendants, and I1a is relatively rare in Italy. It does seem likely that at least some of the Lombards were I1a, though, given their place of origin.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by vineviz
        Also, Nordvedt et al. would probably consider me an I1a-AS (Anglo Saxon). I wonder if this is compatible with a Lombard origin? The Lombards were originally Scandinavian, right?
        Indeed, the closest to my (weird) haplotype are people from Germany and Britain. Maybe the Lombards, during their stay in northern Germany, came into contact with some of the populations that later invaded Britain.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Stevo
          If so, you both have to grow long beards!
          no, I would be horrible

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          • Vineviz, your ancestor's hometown is very near to Cassino and to the famous Monte Cassino abbey, where the Lombard duke Ratchis ended his days as a monk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montecassino

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            • His/Her Grace or His/Her Majesty

              Is it possible to find out if one of your ggggggggrandmother's was a princess or a yeowoman or something? Is there really a difference in mtDNA or Y-DNA between social classes?

              I was reading about founder's theory. Still, I cannot find too much information on it except for silly folktales.

              I thought these names were interesting:
              Highness
              Majesty
              Royal Majesty
              Imperial Majesty
              Your Grace
              His/Her Grace
              Royal Highness (I Know)
              Most Serene Highness
              Your Transparency
              durchlauchtig-hochgeboren
              Illustrious Highness
              Most Excellent
              Erlaucht
              Eminence

              Comment


              • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                Vineviz, your ancestor's hometown is very near to Cassino and to the famous Monte Cassino abbey, where the Lombard duke Ratchis ended his days as a monk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montecassino
                That's also where Paul the Deacon, the historian of the Lombards, was a monk.

                That was before he went to work at the court of Charlemagne as a scholar.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GregKiroKH
                  Is it possible to find out if one of your ggggggggrandmother's was a princess or a yeowoman or something? Is there really a difference in mtDNA or Y-DNA between social classes?
                  No, there is nothing special about the DNA of royalty.

                  If your yDNA or mtDNA closely matched someone of known decent from royalty AND you had some documentation that tied you to that line of decent, I'd say it'd be resonable to conclude decent for yourself. I don't think the DNA alone would be enough to make the connection.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GregKiroKH
                    Is there really a difference in mtDNA or Y-DNA between social classes?
                    Not unless one of the social classes actually came from someplace completely different, with a completely different set of haplogroups. But such total disjointedness is rare, and difficult to enforce rigidly over time.

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                    • I've just received the final update for the SNP test I ordered at Ethnoancestry.
                      Unsurprisingly, it reports I'm P25+ and P66- (the latter has been found only in two Italians thus far, hasn't it?).

                      In the meantime I'm glad the Italy Project keeps on growing...thanks to clearly non Italian surnames

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                        I've just received the final update for the SNP test I ordered at Ethnoancestry.
                        Unsurprisingly, it reports I'm P25+ and P66- (the latter has been found only in two Italians thus far, hasn't it?).

                        In the meantime I'm glad the Italy Project keeps on growing...thanks to clearly non Italian surnames
                        It would have been a real shocker if you had been positive for P66! How could you be both R1b1c8 and R1b1c9* at the same time?

                        What do we know about R1b1c8? Is there a particular geographical region where it is prevalent?

                        I'm still waiting on both M37 and P66.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Stevo
                          It would have been a real shocker if you had been positive for P66! How could you be both R1b1c8 and R1b1c9* at the same time?
                          Yeah but you never know...I've heard that, at now, only two Italians were found positive to this marker. What if R1b1c8 was the Italian refugium R1b subclade?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                            Yeah but you never know...I've heard that, at now, only two Italians were found positive to this marker. What if R1b1c8 was the Italian refugium R1b subclade?
                            That would be interesting if R1b1c8 turned out to be the native Italian SNP. Guess that would make you a barbarian invader, Francesco!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                              Glad to know the only I1a person in the Italy Project thus far
                              Actually, there are almost certainly two. I've been SNP-tested, but there is another member (kit# 55854 / ySearch# ZFT26) with Sicilian roots who is almost certainly I1a as well but is conservatively predicted as "I" by FTDNA.

                              Note the tell-tale DYS455=8, among other things.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stevo
                                That would be interesting if R1b1c8 turned out to be the native Italian SNP. Guess that would make you a barbarian invader, Francesco!

                                Actually, I can't tell which subclade of R1b1c spent the LGM in Italy, but it seems obvious to me that people wintered in the Italian peninsula.
                                They often mention the Balkans or Iberia, whereas Italy is seldom indicated as a possible refugium for R1b.
                                I'm puzzled because in my position everithing is possible: I could be the g-g-g-g-grandson of a Germanic invader or descend from a deep native. Afterall, Mike and I have extremely diverse haplotypes although both of us belong to the same subclade. This is a sign that R1b1c9 should be old in Italy, isn't it?

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