If YOU ARE ONE, BE ONE

[vineviz]

You know, your ancestor's place of origin was part of the Duchy of Benevento and mine was in the Duchy of Spoleto. May we be the descendents of the Lombard settlers?

Seems reasonable, thought its not a theory I had considered. I'll have to look into Lombard history a little more. This would probably mean a later arrival in Italy than the Roman legion theory. Perhaps if my surname project grows enough we can estimate how long the family has been in Latium.

Also, Nordvedt et al. would probably consider me an I1a-AS (Anglo Saxon). I wonder if this is compatible with a Lombard origin? The Lombards were originally Scandinavian, right?

There are also Spanish/Basque names -- Vizcarra & Vizcaya -- that are somewhat similar to mine (Vizzaccaro). Southern Latium was part of the Kingdom of Naples during more recent history, and the Kingdom of Naples was in turn ruled by the Spanish for long periods of that time.

Some many theories, so little DNA. . .

[Stevo]

Seems reasonable, thought its not a theory I had considered. I'll have to look into Lombard history a little more. This would probably mean a later arrival in Italy than the Roman legion theory. Perhaps if my surname project grows enough we can estimate how long the family has been in Latium.

Also, Nordvedt et al. would probably consider me an I1a-AS (Anglo Saxon). I wonder if this is compatible with a Lombard origin? The Lombards were originally Scandinavian, right?

There are also Spanish/Basque names -- Vizcarra & Vizcaya -- that are somewhat similar to mine (Vizzaccaro). Southern Latium was part of the Kingdom of Naples during more recent history, and the Kingdom of Naples was in turn ruled by the Spanish for long periods of that time.

Some many theories, so little DNA. . .

Much of what we know of Lombard history comes from the writings of Paul the Deacon, an 8th-century Benedictine monk who happened also to be a Lombard, the son of Warnefrid.

According to Paul, the Lombards did indeed come from Scandinavia. Known as the Langobards or Longbeards, they came from southern Sweden (Gwyn Jones, A History of the Vikings, p. 23; J.M Wallace-Hadrill, The Barbarian West, 400-1000, pp. 43-63). By the 2nd century A.D. Ptolemy recorded that they were living near the mouth of the Elbe River in North Germany.

As you know, the Lombards eventually gave their name to the region of northern Italy in which they settled.

Most of them were apparently R1b, however, since that is the y-haplogroup most commonly found among their descendants, and I1a is relatively rare in Italy. It does seem likely that at least some of the Lombards were I1a, though, given their place of origin.

[F.E.C.]

Also, Nordvedt et al. would probably consider me an I1a-AS (Anglo Saxon). I wonder if this is compatible with a Lombard origin? The Lombards were originally Scandinavian, right?

Indeed, the closest to my (weird) haplotype are people from Germany and Britain. Maybe the Lombards, during their stay in northern Germany, came into contact with some of the populations that later invaded Britain.

[F.E.C.]

If so, you both have to grow long beards!

no, I would be horrible

[F.E.C.]

Vineviz, your ancestor's hometown is very near to Cassino and to the famous Monte Cassino abbey, where the Lombard duke Ratchis ended his days as a monk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montecassino

[GregKiroKH]

His/Her Grace or His/Her Majesty

Is it possible to find out if one of your ggggggggrandmother's was a princess or a yeowoman or something? Is there really a difference in mtDNA or Y-DNA between social classes?

I was reading about founder's theory. Still, I cannot find too much information on it except for silly folktales.

I thought these names were interesting:
Highness
Majesty
Royal Majesty
Imperial Majesty
Your Grace
His/Her Grace
Royal Highness (I Know)
Most Serene Highness
Your Transparency
durchlauchtig-hochgeboren
Illustrious Highness
Most Excellent
Erlaucht
Eminence

[Stevo]

Vineviz, your ancestor's hometown is very near to Cassino and to the famous Monte Cassino abbey, where the Lombard duke Ratchis ended his days as a monk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montecassino

That's also where Paul the Deacon, the historian of the Lombards, was a monk.

That was before he went to work at the court of Charlemagne as a scholar.

[vineviz]

Is it possible to find out if one of your ggggggggrandmother's was a princess or a yeowoman or something? Is there really a difference in mtDNA or Y-DNA between social classes?

No, there is nothing special about the DNA of royalty.

If your yDNA or mtDNA closely matched someone of known decent from royalty AND you had some documentation that tied you to that line of decent, I'd say it'd be resonable to conclude decent for yourself. I don't think the DNA alone would be enough to make the connection.

[lgmayka]

Is there really a difference in mtDNA or Y-DNA between social classes?

Not unless one of the social classes actually came from someplace completely different, with a completely different set of haplogroups. But such total disjointedness is rare, and difficult to enforce rigidly over time.

[F.E.C.]

I've just received the final update for the SNP test I ordered at Ethnoancestry.
Unsurprisingly, it reports I'm P25+ and P66- (the latter has been found only in two Italians thus far, hasn't it?).

In the meantime I'm glad the Italy Project keeps on growing...thanks to clearly non Italian surnames

[Stevo]

I've just received the final update for the SNP test I ordered at Ethnoancestry.
Unsurprisingly, it reports I'm P25+ and P66- (the latter has been found only in two Italians thus far, hasn't it?).

In the meantime I'm glad the Italy Project keeps on growing...thanks to clearly non Italian surnames

It would have been a real shocker if you had been positive for P66! How could you be both R1b1c8 and R1b1c9* at the same time?

What do we know about R1b1c8? Is there a particular geographical region where it is prevalent?

I'm still waiting on both M37 and P66.

[F.E.C.]

It would have been a real shocker if you had been positive for P66! How could you be both R1b1c8 and R1b1c9* at the same time?

Yeah but you never know...I've heard that, at now, only two Italians were found positive to this marker. What if R1b1c8 was the Italian refugium R1b subclade?

[Stevo]

Yeah but you never know...I've heard that, at now, only two Italians were found positive to this marker. What if R1b1c8 was the Italian refugium R1b subclade?

That would be interesting if R1b1c8 turned out to be the native Italian SNP. Guess that would make you a barbarian invader, Francesco!

[vineviz]

Glad to know the only I1a person in the Italy Project thus far

Actually, there are almost certainly two. I've been SNP-tested, but there is another member (kit# 55854 / ySearch# ZFT26) with Sicilian roots who is almost certainly I1a as well but is conservatively predicted as "I" by FTDNA.

Note the tell-tale DYS455=8, among other things.

[F.E.C.]

That would be interesting if R1b1c8 turned out to be the native Italian SNP. Guess that would make you a barbarian invader, Francesco!

Actually, I can't tell which subclade of R1b1c spent the LGM in Italy, but it seems obvious to me that people wintered in the Italian peninsula.
They often mention the Balkans or Iberia, whereas Italy is seldom indicated as a possible refugium for R1b.
I'm puzzled because in my position everithing is possible: I could be the g-g-g-g-grandson of a Germanic invader or descend from a deep native. Afterall, Mike and I have extremely diverse haplotypes although both of us belong to the same subclade. This is a sign that R1b1c9 should be old in Italy, isn't it?