If YOU ARE ONE, BE ONE

[Stevo]

I understand the ID number for the AMH in YSEARCH is C7BED.

I went to Research Tools and checked my genetic distance from C7BED, which is listed as "Modal R-One-b".

I got a genetic distance of 13 at 37 markers.

Anybody know any other nifty R1b modals in YSEARCH?

Here's another one: the Eurasian Y-DNA-R1 Modal haplotype - ID #6JCR7.

I have a genetic distance of 14 from that one.

[Stevo]

I understand the ID number for the AMH in YSEARCH is C7BED.

I went to Research Tools and checked my genetic distance from C7BED, which is listed as "Modal R-One-b".

I got a genetic distance of 13 at 37 markers.

Anybody know any other nifty R1b modals in YSEARCH?

Here's another one: the Eurasian Y-DNA-R1 Modal haplotype - ID #6JCR7.

I have a genetic distance of 14 from that one.

Here's a third one: Irish Modal R1b Type III Variety - ID #NT4BZ.

I am 14 off from that one, too.

Just call me O'Shoot.

[F.E.C.]

A I1a from southern Latium has joined the Italy Project.
It's interesting to notice he's from a village close to Montecassino, which was in the Lombard duchy of Benevento.

[F.E.C.]

Maybe I haven't calculated in the correct manner the genetic distance in previous efforts, since Ysearch response tells I've "only" got a distance of 11 from the AMH, whereas I've got a distance of 15 from both the Irish and Eurasian (?) modals.

[Stevo]

A I1a from southern Latium has joined the Italy Project.

There goes the neighborhood!

It's interesting to notice he's from a village close to Montecassino, which was in the Lombard duchy of Benevento.

I think the Lombards originated up near the Baltic Coast. Thus they probably were a mix of R1b, I1a, and maybe even R1a.

I1a is relatively rare in Italy, isn't it?

[Stevo]

Maybe I haven't calculated in the correct manner the genetic distance in previous efforts, since Ysearch response tells I've "only" got a distance of 11 from the AMH, whereas I've got a distance of 15 from both the Irish and Eurasian (?) modals.

I wonder if that YSEARCH entry is the AMH or just the R1b modal based on the YSEARCH database itself.

After all, it isn't labelled Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

I've had the same experience you have had. When I compared my haplotype against the AMH in the past, I was more than the 13 off I got in running it against C7BED in YSEARCH.

I found it interesting that my haplotype is almost squarely in between that R1b modal in YSEARCH and the Eurasian R1 modal. I am 13 from the former and 14 from the latter.

I wonder what that means, if anything.

Is that a hint of a more easterly origin?

You are in a similar boat, Francesco, nearly centered between Eurasian R1 and that R1b modal.

[F.E.C.]

I1a is relatively rare in Italy, isn't it?

It is very rare, indeed.

[F.E.C.]

I wonder if that YSEARCH entry is the AMH or just the R1b modal based on the YSEARCH database itself.

After all, it isn't labelled Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

I've had the same experience you have had. When I compared my haplotype against the AMH in the past, I was more than the 13 off I got in running it against C7BED in YSEARCH.

I found it interesting that my haplotype is almost squarely in between that R1b modal in YSEARCH and the Eurasian R1 modal. I am 13 from the former and 14 from the latter.

I wonder what that means, if anything.

Is that a hint of a more easterly origin?

You are in a similar boat, Francesco, nearly centered between Eurasian R1 and that R1b modal.

I don't think it hints to a more easterly origin: afterall we both are closer to the AMH than to the Eurasian one.

AMH: from Iberia

Eurasian R1: from Russia/Ukraine

Stevo and F.E.C.: somewhere in between (but both very distant from each other)

[Stevo]

I don't think it hints to a more easterly origin: afterall we both are closer to the AMH than to the Eurasian one.

AMH: from Iberia

Eurasian R1: from Russia/Ukraine.

Stevo and F.E.C.: somewhere in between (but both very distant from each other)

I am only closer by one step to the AMH than to the Eurasian R1 modal, which may partially explain why, although FTDNA predicted that I am R1b1 on my personal page, it lists me as R1 on all my project results pages.

You are closer to the AMH than you are to the Eurasian R1 modal by four. If you plotted that on an incremental line with the AMH at the left extreme and the Eurasian R1 modal at the right, you would still be just to the left (west) of center. I would be almost squarely in the center, 13 to the right of the AMH and 14 to the left of the Eurasian R1 modal.

Neither of us have y-dna that hails from Ireland apparently.

Whatever all this means, I do enjoy playing around with the stuff in YSEARCH!

[F.E.C.]

I am only closer by one step to the AMH than to the Eurasian R1 modal, which may partially explain why, although FTDNA predicted that I am R1b1 on my personal page, it lists me as R1 on all my project results pages.

You are closer to the AMH than you are to the Eurasian R1 modal by four. If you plotted that on an incremental line with the AMH at the left extreme and the Eurasian R1 modal at the right, you would still be just to the left (west) of center. I would be almost squarely in the center, 13 to the right of the AMH and 14 to the left of the Eurasian R1 modal.

Neither of us have y-dna that hails from Ireland apparently.

Whatever all this means, I do enjoy playing around with the stuff in YSEARCH!

Stevo, I think it's time for us to officially come to this conclusion: 10.000 years ago (assuming you're S21+) our common ancestor wasn't in Iberia nor as far east as Russia or Caucasus.
I think we have to focus on what there is between the two...

[Stevo]

Francesco -

I just tried something pretty unscientific, as well as pretty quick and unrefined.

I took a blank map of Europe (one I use when teaching Geography) and drew a line on it from Russia to Portugal.

The right end I let represent the Eurasian R1 modal, the left the AMH.

On my quick, sloppy, and unrefined line you wound up in western Austria and I wound up in the vicinity of the Czech Republic or Southern Poland/Slovakia.

I know this was silly, but it is kind of interesting. On my goofy line you wound up not too far from Italy (a shift of the line to the south by a few centimeters), and I wound up just to the northeast of you.

Hmmm . . .

Again, I make no claims that that was science . . .

[Rick]

another exploratory approach

I've used another approach that for me at least provided some insight into the possible "cluster" of R1b I may belong to. Among the 37 STR markers some are much faster mutators than others. For example, the mutation rate of DYS 449 is 15x faster than that of DYS 388. So, to approximate the sort of timeframe of R1b subclade SNPs (without having tested positive for any deeper than R1b1c), I created a new Y-search profile using only the STRs designated by FTDNA as slow markers. This left 23 of the 37. This new profile of only slow markers I figured would be closer to the "deep ancestral" haplotype than would my full haplotype including the fast moving markers.

Here are the slow markers as defined by FTDNA:
DYS
393
390
19
391
426
388
389-I
392
389-2
459a
459b
455
454
447
437
448
460
gata H4
YCA IIa
YCA IIb
607
442
438

My results using this method found GD 0 and 1 matches primarily in England, Scotland, Ireland and Germany. Looks like the S21 SNP test is next up for me.

Cheers, Rick

[Stevo]

That sounds like a great idea, Rick.

Thanks!

I'm going to give that a try as soon as I get the chance (probably this afternoon).

[MMaddi]

Well, now it seems that we've found some interesting things to do while we're all waiting for marker upgrades and SNP test results! I like the ideas that Stevo and Rick have come up with and tried them.

When I tried Rick's idea of just comparing on ysearch using the 23 slow markers, as judged by FTDNA, I don't get anybody closer than a genetic distance of 3 to me. I get 9 matches at that GD. Like I said before, I have an unusual haplotype.

The matches seem to be mostly English names, with one Swiss and one French also. Here's one interesting thing - when I look at a comparison of the haplotypes with those nine, 8 of them have 390=23, like me. Shades of S21+! The one who has 390=24 is the French one, so I then excluded him from the comparison. Then I looked at the values for CDYa-b. The reason I did this is that my values for that are 38-40, which are high for R1b and hard for me to match. Of the 8 I'm comparing, only one matches me on that, with the surname Self and origin of ancestor in England. The Swiss man is close with CDYa-b=38-38. I'm not sure what all this says about my deep ancestry.

Next, I tried out Stevo's idea, using the AMH and Eurasian R1 modals compared to my haplotype. I am a GD of 18 from the AMH and 17 from the Eurasian R1. That's about halfway, like Stevo, only I'm a little more distant from those modals than he is, probably owing to my unusual haplotype. Take a look at the comparison of my haplotype to the 2 modals: http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...c7bed%2C+6jcr7

You can see on which markers I differ from those modals. You can see there that my CDYa-b is higher than both modals, as I noted above. Plus, my 385b=16 also makes it very hard for me to match other R1b's. However, all three of those markers are fast mutators.

So look at my differences on the slow markers. I think I remember reading a few months ago on the Genealogy-DNA list that the tendency in mutations is to increase in value on a marker, not decrease. So it would seem that lower marker values, especially on slower mutating markers, would indicate an older haplotype. That makes the S21+ value 390=23 interesting, since the AMH modal for R1b is 24. But then my values on 392 and 389-2, both slow markers, are higher than the 2 modals. Then there are other slow markers where I'm lower than the modals - 447, 437, 460, 607 and 442. This gives me 6 slow markers where I'm lower than the 2 modals and 2 slow markers where I'm higher than the modals.

I'm not sure what all this means, but at least it's keeping me occupied while I'm waiting for my marker upgrade results.

Mike

[F.E.C.]

Stevo, you didn't use a scientifical method but it could easily be you didn't get too far from the truth.

Rick I think your idea is a good one. The results you an Mike had were all likely in my opinion. Thus I immediately tried out your method and these results I got confirm once more my strange link to Britain.

My closest matches (they're 3) have a genetic distance of two:

-1 is, as far as I know, a typical Irish surname, though another possible place of origin for this match could be Scotland.
-the remainig 2 have the same (British) surname and whereas one of them is from Virginia, the other one is of unknown origin.

Then if I allow matches with a GD of 3 I get ten more individuals:

-1 from Scotland
-1 from North Carolina with a clearly Scottish surname
-3 from England
-1 from Ireland
-4 of unknown origin although I can suppose one is from Britain, one is from Spain, two are from Germany

I also checked my GD out of 37 marker with my three closest matches: an enormous difference (20) with the Irish/Scottish one, a closer relatedness to the ones with the same British surname.